Civilization 7 Pre-Launch Discussion

[Zloth]

I like the sound of the civ changing. It was always weird to start out as cave-man-American.

I don't like the sound of a simplified tech tree at all, though. I want a big, complex tech tree that will let me explore various strategies at the cost of others. Civ's have been more along about picking the order you research each level - you'll be filling them all in eventually. And now it's getting even smaller?

OMG, the barbarians are gone!? Oh, I see, some of the minor civs will be barbarian'ish. I presume they will have a 'raging minor civs' option that makes far more of them hostile.

Towns.... errr, those have been around for a long time?? I guess these will be further away from the cities. Navigable rivers have been around forever, too - you just didn't see the boats.

"If they behaved like real players, the AI leaders would probably focus all their early-game energy on building cool Wonders and then quit the first time they suffered a significant military loss." <ahem> loosens suddenly tight collar I have no idea what Tyler talking about.

Workers gone.... hmmm. I tend to put a lot of them on auto, but not all. I might want a road built extra fast, so I'll send 2+ of them to build it quickly. I guess I'll wait and see.

"Resources can now be assigned to cities and towns, providing bonuses to them..." Thank you Old World. Some of that Commander stuff sounds very Old World, too. And maybe the barbarian change?

I don't think the changes will help me get to the victory screen. It isn't tedium per se that stops me from finishing, it's knowing that I'm going to win (or lose) hours before that happens. Maybe the crises at the end will help? <shrug>

 

[ZedClampet]

I like the sound of the civ changing. It was always weird to start out as cave-man-American.

I don't like the sound of a simplified tech tree at all, though. I want a big, complex tech tree that will let me explore various strategies at the cost of others. Civ's have been more along about picking the order you research each level - you'll be filling them all in eventually. And now it's getting even smaller?

OMG, the barbarians are gone!? Oh, I see, some of the minor civs will be barbarian'ish. I presume they will have a 'raging minor civs' option that makes far more of them hostile.

Towns.... errr, those have been around for a long time?? I guess these will be further away from the cities. Navigable rivers have been around forever, too - you just didn't see the boats.

"If they behaved like real players, the AI leaders would probably focus all their early-game energy on building cool Wonders and then quit the first time they suffered a significant military loss." <ahem> loosens suddenly tight collar I have no idea what Tyler talking about.

Workers gone.... hmmm. I tend to put a lot of them on auto, but not all. I might want a road built extra fast, so I'll send 2+ of them to build it quickly. I guess I'll wait and see.

"Resources can now be assigned to cities and towns, providing bonuses to them..." Thank you Old World. Some of that Commander stuff sounds very Old World, too. And maybe the barbarian change?

I don't think the changes will help me get to the victory screen. It isn't tedium per se that stops me from finishing, it's knowing that I'm going to win (or lose) hours before that happens. Maybe the crises at the end will help? <shrug>

I guess I'm the oddball. I finished almost all my games.

 

[ZedClampet]

I don't like the sound of a simplified tech tree at all, though. I want a big, complex tech tree that will let me explore various strategies at the cost of others. Civ's have been more along about picking the order you research each level - you'll be filling them all in eventually. And now it's getting even smaller?

I think researching everything is better and presents you with just as many tough decisions. It's all about the order and the speed that you do your research. What path to victory are you shooting for? If you are the first to research a certain tech and you are, for a while, the only one getting those bonuses, it can change the game in your favor. Plus, the strategy to be the first across the finish line with research is a great way to win a points game. Since the AI almost never fulfills any other set of winning requirements, making sure you are always ahead there means you are probably going to win.

OMG, the barbarians are gone!? Oh, I see, some of the minor civs will be barbarian'ish. I presume they will have a 'raging minor civs' option that makes far more of them hostile.

I'm glad the barbarians are gone. This way Brian won't pretend that's the whole game.

Towns.... errr, those have been around for a long time?? I guess these will be further away from the cities. Navigable rivers have been around forever, too - you just didn't see the boats.

The towns aren't in 5, at least, and I don't think they are in 6.

"If they behaved like real players, the AI leaders would probably focus all their early-game energy on building cool Wonders and then quit the first time they suffered a significant military loss." <ahem> loosens suddenly tight collar I have no idea what Tyler talking about.

git gud

Workers gone.... hmmm. I tend to put a lot of them on auto, but not all. I might want a road built extra fast, so I'll send 2+ of them to build it quickly. I guess I'll wait and see.

I'm a little worried about how you are going to build roads. Sounds like maybe it's the trade routes again. I don't like that. I will like not spending copious amounts of time on finding things for my workers to do.

I don't think the changes will help me get to the victory screen. It isn't tedium per se that stops me from finishing, it's knowing that I'm going to win (or lose) hours before that happens. Maybe the crises at the end will help? <shrug>

I think some of it is also people restarting because they have a new plan they want to try. The plan falls apart and they make a new one and start over again, etc[

 

[Brian Boru]

I want a big, complex tech tree that will let me explore various strategies at the cost of others

I disagree and agree
Big and complex do not equal Strategy, merely make learning curve annoying.

But I've always wanted to be forced to pick a main Tech 'train' with only time for basics in others—eg main Science push, only able to tech defensive Military and basic Culture. This should be possible via each Tech of a type providing research bonuses to others of same type.

'raging minor civs' option

That better be there, or moddable Day 1 !!!

Towns.... errr, those have been around for a long time?? I guess these will be further away from the cities

Not the Cottage-Hamlet-Town thing. Settlers will now found Towns—you can purchase City status later if you like.

I might want a road built extra fast

My guess is Trade Routes will build the roads. I'm not sorry to see Workers gone, but concerned about tile improvements being auto-built—I usually want sth diff built ~50% of the time compared to AI rec.

It isn't tedium per se that stops me from finishing

I can start a game knowing I'm going to win—ie on a not-high diff level—but still enjoy the first half of the game. It's the setting everything up optimally, the exploration, the choosing a direction… As Tyler says "my love of expansion conflicts with my desire to actually manage 12 cities". I'm still waiting for 'Provinces'—function as super-cities, made up of a not-geographic grouping of existing ones—to cure that problem.

Maybe the crises at the end will help?

If the subsequent play is nearly as interesting and fun as just starting a new game.

 

[Brian Boru]

My notes from Firaxis video and PCG's Tyler Wilde's 2 articles yesterday:

General
Sid Meier’s Civilization VII - Official Gameplay Showcase
Release 2025-02-11
Narrator Gwendoline Christie [actress Game of Thrones]
Composer Christopher Tin [Civ4 & 6]
Each Civ has own music theme
No info re Mods

Map
Navigable rivers!
3D terrain—cliffs, waterfalls
Expands with each era

Ages
3 Ages—Antiquity, Exploration, Modern
Antiquity & Exploration end w Crisis events
One Age can be played alone for short game
Change Civ each Age, options limited by previous Civ and choices

Civs and Leaders
Leader portraits are not cartoons or caricatures
Leaders not limited to own Civ, like 'Unrestricted' in Civ4
Leaders not always Head of State
'Sub' Leaders for eg Science, Philosophy, Religion—like old Advisers?
Civ unique to Age
Influence is all-purpose diplomacy currency

Cities
Urban sprawl maybe expands, but no fixed Districts
Number allowed may be limited by Age?
Settlers found Towns f land grab—later can be cities f Gold
Towns no Production, buy Units & Buildings
Towns geared towards specialization—eg Farming, Trade
Workers gone!
Choose new tile when city grows
Improvements auto-built on new tile
Resources assigned to Urbans f bonus
Buildings lose buffs at Age change

Science
Each Tech has an additional Mastery option to research
Some techs allow more Settlements

Military
Barbs gone! Enter Independent Powers > City States
Many more Unit choices, new Commanders
Only Commanders get XP & Promos
All embark in shallow water
Fortified build a little fortification
Scouts build temp Watchtowers

 

[Brian Boru]

What I like​

Map
Navigable rivers! 3D terrain—cliffs, waterfalls. Map expands with each age.
All embark in shallow water—no more futzing w Galleys.
Looks lovely.

Civs and Leaders
Leader portraits are not cartoons.
Unrestricted Leaders, my fav way to play Civ4—it's a game first for me, a History not-simulation last.

Towns and Cities
Settlers founding Towns rather than Cities—hope this will reduce urban management load in late game, depends how specialization works.
Workers gone! Very tedious mechanic since automating them was always very sub-optimal.
Choose new tile when city grows.

What I dislike​

No info re Mods.
Improvements auto-built on new tile.
Buildings lose buffs at Age change—is this attempt to recreate the early game feeling?
Only Commanders get XP & Promos—while managing this for individual troops was busy work, it was significant.

 

[Brian Boru]

Some reaction over on CivFanatics:

What is your overall impression of the game?

What do you think of sprawling cities in Civ7?

What do we think of the change to playing multiple civs per game?

So cautiously favorable for now, with the Civ changing being the main sore spot.

The Firaxis rep there said there'll be further updates by the end of the month at PAX West.

PS BBC article:

Civilization VII: How Roman London inspired the upcoming game

An eight-year wait for news on the next Civilization game is finally over.

www.bbc.com

 

[ZedClampet]

Some reaction over on CivFanatics:

What is your overall impression of the game?

What do you think of sprawling cities in Civ7?

What do we think of the change to playing multiple civs per game?

So cautiously favorable for now, with the Civ changing being the main sore spot.

The Firaxis rep there said there'll be further updates by the end of the month at PAX West.

PS BBC article:

Civilization VII: How Roman London inspired the upcoming game

An eight-year wait for news on the next Civilization game is finally over.

www.bbc.com

I'm pretty excited about everything but changing civs. I'm fairly neutral on that.

Next they should do a completely fictional civ: all fictional factions, leaders, techs, units, etc.

I played the original board game in the early 80's. Took forever to play, but it was so much fun. The board would sit on my friend's card table for a couple of weeks while we slowly made our way through it. Prior to that we'd only played strict war games like Blitzkrieg, which were actually my favorite, but Civ was a nice change of pace.

 

[Colif]

No info re Mods.

You are not alone

 

[Pifanjr]

I'm pretty excited about everything but changing civs. I'm fairly neutral on that.

Next they should do a completely fictional civ: all fictional factions, leaders, techs, units, etc.

They did that with Civilization: Beyond Earth. I personally didn't like that, it removed a lot of the personality.

I played the original board game in the early 80's. Took forever to play, but it was so much fun. The board would sit on my friend's card table for a couple of weeks while we slowly made our way through it. Prior to that we'd only played strict war games like Blitzkrieg, which were actually my favorite, but Civ was a nice change of pace.

My wife and I have talked about wanting to play the original board game, but I doubt we'll ever manage to make it happen.

 

[Colif]

 

[Brian Boru]

^ Love his passion and energy

GamerZakh dropped an interesting tidbit in a comment reply under his 15m video:

"it was said for Civ 6 that each new civ and leader cost a quarter of a million dollars to make, when put everything together"

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3B-wjvqKDs

 

[MichelGamer1997]

I saw the price of part 7 and was surprised. Do you think there will be any new mechanics or will there be a "graphical improvement" for 10x the price? Very interesting what the developers will get and if it will make sense to play the 7th part. I'm going to play the 5th part)

 

[Brian Boru]

Do you think there will be any new mechanics

You should watch one of the videos, they outline what's known so far about the significant changes. May be more info this weekend at the PAX West con.

 

[MichelGamer1997]

You should watch one of the videos, they outline what's known so far about the significant changes. May be more info this weekend at the PAX West con.

Thanks, I'll look into it.

 

[Brian Boru]

Watched the PAX West Video 55m, pretty interesting with lots of history and the thinking behind the major changes. My notes from it:

---

Design Aims​

Overall
Preserve 'skate on surface' Domination approach
Reduce the end-game slog
Cut down complexity, focus on strategy = better AI
Tall via Specialists, Wide via Settlement Cap reduction

Ages
Break game up to reduce end-game tedium
Reflect how History is layered IRL, no set destiny
Progress isn't continuously upward
Crises supply setbacks and challenges
Age change depends on earlier civ, leader, play
Lots of different routes lead to France in Modern
Historical or 'What if' evolution
UUs & UBs each Age, no waiting all game to get yours
AI will choose historic route thru Ages

Multiplayer
Setup different depending on starting Age
Smaller Antiquity map so room for Exploration expansion
Big free-for-all not yet, but in plan

Misc
Mod community given big thumbs up
September 12 dev gameplay live stream
Fortification is tile-based, ie usable by diff units
Denuvo not mentioned
Switch & console compromises not mentioned

---

I'm delighted with some of this

♣ The design aim of reduction in complexity fixes the main problem I have with Civ 6.

♦ If Ages can pull off the reduction in later-game slog and anti-climax, it could be a big breakthru.

♥ Mods confirmed as still firmly part of it all.

♠ Even more focus on creating your own story with each playthru, by addition of various routes to take thru Ages to achieve your goals.

♣ UUs and UBs each Age makes civs like USA & Germany more playable—no waiting until after result decided before getting them.

Concerns I still have

♣ How much compromise for consoles?

♦ System requirements still unknown

♥ Just how wide can a Wide game be?

♠ How will map expansion for Exploration Age affect map modders?

Neutral item

Will Denuvo DRM screw it up like it's done with a small few other games?

 

[ZedClampet]

Just came up on my Steam recommendations, but it's very unlikely that I'll spend anything close to $69.99 on this game. I'd probably pay half that.

 

[Brian Boru]

Skimming this video—not recommended—GamerZakh made an interesting comment that a Firaxis dev said Civ 1-2-3 were 3 iterations of the same game, and 4-5-6 are iterations of a different game.

My own experience is that none of 1-2-3 grabbed me, but 4 started my love for Civ which has continued thru 5 and 6, even tho 6 is my least fav of the 3.

So I wonder if 7 is going to be another 'new' game, the 3rd in the franchise?

It just might be. Nine years is a very long time between Civ games—5 & 6 were the gaps to 5 & 6, ha ha—so maybe they are indeed cooking from a new recipe. Of course, the gap from 3 to 4 was only 4 years—ha ha x2—so who knows 🤷‍♂️

 

[Zloth]

So I wonder if 7 is going to be another 'new' game, the 3rd in the franchise?

Nah. Well, maybe, it depends on how 'new' it has to be to get called new.

Yakuza: Like a Dragon is supposed to be a totally new start for the Yakuza series. The combat certainly is different and there's now a repeatable mission, but the stories, sidequests, and mini-games could have been in any Yakuza game. If you play mainly for the combat, LaD is going to be very new. If you play mainly for the stories, not so much.

I expect this will be the same. If they hit features you're very interested in, it will feel very new.

 

[Brian Boru]

Both the map and combat changed hugely from Civ 4 to 5, City States came in, City border expansion changed, and building wide also got nerfed, so that was a big big change overall—I regard 5 as a very diff game to 4. 6 I see as an iteration of 5, mainly thru over-complicating the whole gameplay, with the Districts as the only major change.

The breaking into up to 3 diff civs for you in one game could be a major departure from the remaining legacy game structure—that plus crises requiring you to rejig your progress ⅓ and ⅔ thru.

Also, the reduction in complexity could result in improved AI which would be another breakthru in making the game more strategic.

Anyway, it should be interesting.

 

[Brian Boru]

I took some notes watching the 2-hour dev gameplay and discussion:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjUdkPW3zLg


The video is disjointed and a bit of a mess, jumping around and people jumping in to talk about how good their voice sounds. I started watching Spud's stream of it, but that was worse—he kept butting in over their butting in
It would be much better if Carl had done the assigned gameplay with his commentary, and then the others joined in with their background stuff.

Map
Tile vegetation changes w biome—eg tundra forest diff fr grass forest.
Moving onto tiles like forest ends turn, rather than consume move points, exc f Scout—not too clear on benefit, maybe helps AI improve nav.
Rivers 2 types, minor & navigable.
Elevation blocks direct tile access.
Diff types of Goody Huts.

Units
Settlers can defend themselves, destroyed if killed.
Select Warrior or Scout for 1-turn build, ie appear just after City founded.

Cities & Towns
'City Grow' mechanism f border expand—choose tile, and it culture bombs surrounding tiles.
Settlement limit not hard, excess increases Unhappiness.
Tall & Wide both feasible via Towns not becoming Cities.
Urban district—unclear to me, still seems too like Civ6.

Military
Commander Promo trees—defense, leadership, attack etc.
Commander has area of effect for bonuses to troops—1 or 2 tiles.
Commander respawns if killed.

Misc
Some unique civics for each Civ.
Popups give choice of quests, or ignore them—can be based on leader or Civ.
Age has 4 Path choices [goals to pursue iirc] within it.
Cultural variety f buildings and units aesthetics.
Resource trading linked to trade routes, not the diplo swap screen we've known.
There will be further 'reveal events' in future.

My Conclusion
I'm still interested, nothing there to concern me. Waiting for more info re City districts, I don't get that yet. Lots of stuff there, hope they make it gel before the second expansion

 

[Colif]

Stream starts 36 minutes in

 

[Brian Boru]

Stream starts 36 minutes in

I don't recommend that video:

I started watching Spud's stream of it, but that was worse—he kept butting in over their butting in

 

[Brian Boru]

Firaxis are starting a dev blog for Civ 7, first post by head designer Ed Beach is about the Ages:

Dev Diary #1: Ages | Civilization VII

Get developer insights and additional details about how Ages are designed in Sid Meier's Civilization VII!

civilization.2k.com

Nothing very new if you saw the 2 main panel videos so far, but if you didn't it's a nice ~15 minute intro to the thinking behind the Ages change.

Couple of related tidbits from it:
"more than half of the Civilization VI players have never finished a single campaign!"
"late-game Civilization is just not that fun to play"

 

[Brian Boru]

30m Spud interview from Sept 19th:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNZ1SSacu_4


No 'hard' Qs in it, but some good info anyway. My notes:

30m interview with Ed Beach + Carl 'Barbarian'

Modding
Similar to previous, use XML, release tools later.

Ages
Unique gameplay in each, eg Naval + Religion big in Age 2;
Hinted re Economy playing a big role, maybe Age 3;
Different Commander types in each Age—Land, Sea, Air?

Release Philosophy
Break old style of Base + 2 Expansions.

Reduce Annoyances
Less Micro, Depth without Complexity, make easier;
Micro to max movement points gone;
Better Start positions, Biomes different but yields same;
Start Positions decided first, then map built around those.

Rework
Diplomacy is at System 4—ie first 3 systems scrapped.

Sid Meier
Still valued advisor, eg made Civ7 movement system.

Misc
Navigable Rivers have Bridges…