August 2023 Random Game Thoughts Thread

[Ryzengang]

I don’t play many platformers but The Messenger is easily one of the best I’ve ever played. Super tight and fluid controls, very satisfying movement, gorgeous pixel graphics, and an awesome soundtrack, it was a great experience start to finish. I’m super excited for their next game Sea of Stars which comes out this month I believe.

Yea Sea of Stars has been on my wishlist for awhile now. Looks great and I'm looking forward to reviews. Hopefully they nail it.

 

[Brian Boru]

Was there secret endings for FC5 and New Dawn?

Yes and no.

Spoiler: Far Cry 5 secret ending

Don't put the cuffs on Joseph during the intro confrontation with the Seed family in the church.

There are a couple of minor variations in the New Dawn endings depending on kill-or-not decisions you make, but of no significance. There is no secret ending.

Played more FC6 over the weekend

Fyi there's a FC6 thread if you're going to post more about it as you go along—shame to have your contribution lost to posterity in these 'random' threads

this may be easier for a solo developer to do, since they know how everything works, they can easily see if a change will break anything else. For a large AAA developer I can understand it being harder to do, with so much going into those complex games one minor change could break a dozen other systems

You hit the nail on the head there.

 

[Zloth]

You just don't get that in major developer games.

Having more people means more complexity. Just going from one person to two means the one person can't do anything that would mangle the program to the point where the other person can't work. So, you need to start messing with branches of code and merging back together. Add even more people and the chances of two people needing to work on the same bit at the same time starts going up to where you have to start planning out all the work and who deals with what when. If you want your program to get built in the fewest possible number of "man hours," then a single programmer is the way to go.

There's a big advantage in the 'dev preview' thing, too, I think. There's going to be a lot less concern about whether this fix is going to break something else. If everything works, great. If it somehow mangles something else, either fix the something else or roll back the fix - because those can be rolled out to users in less than an hour, too. Try doing half a dozen patches per day in a game like Baldur's Gate 3, with a couple of those patches just undoing a patch from earlier in the day and see what happens!

 

[ZedClampet]

Try doing half a dozen patches per day in a game like Baldur's Gate 3, with a couple of those patches just undoing a patch from earlier in the day and see what happens!

First of all, I have very limited knowledge on all of this, so I may very well be missing the boat. However:

By the way I figure complexity, BG3 is an anomaly of a game and much more complex than average. That said, I've seen AAA studios of less complex games role out significant daily patches right after launch before. It's not completely unheard of. But as I said before, if I'm thinking it through correctly (big if) most AAA games are not any more complex than a lot of these single dev games. Their processes are more complex because they have a lot more people working on the game, but the games themselves are just bigger (maps) and more beautiful.

However, as I said, I'm just going by what I consider complexity. My knowledge of AAA game development is very limited. It could be that I'm simply misunderstanding what counts as complexity. And maybe having that many engineers working on a single game creates extra complexity in the code, which I think you kind of indicated. This would be unnecessary complexity, but would still be complexity nonetheless. As you sort of pointed out, you could then have a situation where no single person had the whole thing figured out and any one person could inadvertently break another person's work.

That all seems reasonable to me at my current, low level of knowledge.

 

[Pifanjr]

I suspect most triple A games are significantly more complex than single-developer games. But even if they're about as complex, I think one major difference is that in triple A studios it's much more likely that at least some of the developers that worked on the game will have moved on or been reassigned either during development or after launch. It's a lot harder debugging someone else's code.

 

[ZedClampet]

I suspect most triple A games are significantly more complex than single-developer games. But even if they're about as complex, I think one major difference is that in triple A studios it's much more likely that at least some of the developers that worked on the game will have moved on or been reassigned either during development or after launch. It's a lot harder debugging someone else's code.

Can you give examples of how the AAA games themselves are more complex? I'm not challenging you. I'm trying to learn and become more knowledgeable. It seems to me that most AAA games just have a standard combat system including NPC behaviors, an inventory system, an upgrade system plus your basic physics, movement, etc. Most games have simple NPCs and quest lines. Most games have some sort of crafting these days. AAA games always have more cutscenes, but I don't consider that a major complexity. AAA games have better graphics and sound, but I'm not sure how much complexity higher quality brings.

I don't know. When I consider all the things I can do in some of these single dev games, they just dwarf AAA games in terms of playable complexity, but maybe that isn't the same as development complexity.

But perhaps I should stop talking so much about something I have no knowledge about

 

[Pifanjr]

Can you give examples of how the AAA games themselves are more complex?

The biggest point is probably that almost all single-dev games are 2D, while almost all AAA games are 3D. Adding another dimension vastly increases the complexity of the development.

 

[ZedClampet]

The biggest point is probably that almost all single-dev games are 2D, while almost all AAA games are 3D. Adding another dimension vastly increases the complexity of the development.

Ah, well most of the single dev games I play are actually 3D. but maybe there are more 2D than 3D out in the wild. Don't know. I probably shouldn't assume that the single dev games that I play are representative of the whole. But even a 2D game like Cosmoteer is significantly more complex than any AAA game I've played recently. But, again, Cosmoteer probably isn't the norm.

 

[Pifanjr]

Ah, well most of the single dev games I play are actually 3D. but maybe there are more 2D than 3D out in the wild. Don't know. I probably shouldn't assume that the single dev games that I play are representative of the whole. But even a 2D game like Cosmoteer is significantly more complex than any AAA game I've played recently. But, again, Cosmoteer probably isn't the norm.

It's a lot easier to make the gameplay of your game more complex when the graphics are simpler. Just not having animations or using voice actors for example makes changing or adding content a lot quicker, cheaper and easier.

 

[Brian Boru]

Complexity…

@ZedClampet you may be hitting on some of the most brilliant individual devs in your indie selections—in general, someone doing their own thing is naturally more gifted overall than someone working for a company.

2 things which exponentially increase product complexity are size of customer base and width of worldwide market [ie localization].

Best indie software dev I know of is your neighbor Nick Bradbury. He developed a top-ranked product in 3 different fields, a remarkable feat in the face of serious corporate competition. He had to give it up due to near burnout from the Customer Service load.

I don't know what degree of complexity is introduced by different hardware and OS platforms, but I speculate it's considerable.

I can't see a single dev putting together the Far Cry 6 world map almost glitch-free. Then crafting the many significant NPCs, and making all the NPCs react differently depending on which gender you are and which amigo is with you.

Negotiating all the contracts for the music usage, that's gotta take some energy… then the whole multi-channel marketing campaigns…

Anyway… I suppose it mainly boils down to scope.

 

[ZedClampet]

Complexity…

@ZedClampet you may be hitting on some of the most brilliant individual devs in your indie selections—in general, someone doing their own thing is naturally more gifted overall than someone working for a company.

2 things which exponentially increase product complexity are size of customer base and width of worldwide market [ie localization].

Best indie software dev I know of is your neighbor Nick Bradbury. He developed a top-ranked product in 3 different fields, a remarkable feat in the face of serious corporate competition. He had to give it up due to near burnout from the Customer Service load.

I don't know what degree of complexity is introduced by different hardware and OS platforms, but I speculate it's considerable.

I can't see a single dev putting together the Far Cry 6 world map almost glitch-free. Then crafting the many significant NPCs, and making all the NPCs react differently depending on which gender you are and which amigo is with you.

Negotiating all the contracts for the music usage, that's gotta take some energy… then the whole multi-channel marketing campaigns…

Anyway… I suppose it mainly boils down to scope.

Yeah, some of what you are talking about is more scope than complexity, which does add it's own level of extra-game complexity, but also I was mostly just referring to the games themselves. And even though I don't understand why I'm wrong about the games, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong since no one else sees it this way, although I do, perhaps, have more experience with single dev games than most people. I believe that the games I'm thinking of are the exceptions rather than the rule, perhaps. Also, I know nothing at all about AAA development, so I shouldn't have been talking about it in the first place.

 

[neogunhero]

I’m getting tired of sex and nudity in games. I am not against romance in games, but full on sex and nudity is so pointless and only cater to a small portion of players in my opinion. I was interested in Baldur’s Gate 3 but seeing how much sex and nudity is in it really turned me off (no pun intended) from playing the game. I understand you can censor it and a lot of it is optional features you don’t have to participate in, but that is like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound essentially. We don’t need nudity to prove to players the game they are playing is mature and made for adults. To me it adds nothing at all to any game that has it. Romance is fine, fade-to-black innuendo is fine, but to show genitals and intercourse is not okay with me. I also feel like a lot of times they portray the sexist trope of scantily clad women which is just not very appealing to a ton of people. Sure it can go the same way for portraying male sexual partners in games, but why not just remove it from the game entirely? Horny features made by horny developers for horny players. Not my type of game.

 

[ZedClampet]

It's a lot easier to make the gameplay of your game more complex when the graphics are simpler. Just not having animations or using voice actors for example makes changing or adding content a lot quicker, cheaper and easier.

Well, the ones I'm talking about certainly all have animations. They don't have significant amounts of voice acting, but I'm not sure how fixing a table entry or some other simple fixes that often go left undone by AAA devs is really impacted by either animations or voice acting.

The fact that modders can make extensive changes to games without "causing 15 other things to go wrong" makes me believe that this particular argument is just a convenient lie to pacify impatient gamers,

Nevertheless, as I said above, I'm admitting defeat on this one.

 

[ZedClampet]

I’m getting tired of sex and nudity in games. I am not against romance in games, but full on sex and nudity is so pointless and only cater to a small portion of players in my opinion. I was interested in Baldur’s Gate 3 but seeing how much sex and nudity is in it really turned me off (no pun intended) from playing the game. I understand you can censor it and a lot of it is optional features you don’t have to participate in, but that is like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound essentially. We don’t need nudity to prove to players the game they are playing is mature and made for adults. To me it adds nothing at all to any game that has it. Romance is fine, fade-to-black innuendo is fine, but to show genitals and intercourse is not okay with me. I also feel like a lot of times they portray the sexist trope of scantily clad women which is just not very appealing to a ton of people. Sure it can go the same way for portraying male sexual partners in games, but why not just remove it from the game entirely? Horny features made by horny developers for horny players. Not my type of game.

I'm not really bothered by it. I'm fine with or without it and usually avoid romance in games because I've never seen it done well.

I actually think that adding nudity and sex to games in an attempt to grab the "mature game" label is cheap and lazy, and it isn't at all what I'm looking for in a mature game.

However, gamers as a whole just eat this stuff up for some reason.

As far as Baldur's Gate 3 goes, though, I don't think there are any sex scenes. Could be wrong, but I believe I read an article that said that. I think, maybe, the only nudity is an optional thing when you are creating your character.

Saw an article yesterday where someone released a mod that made your female orc's penis much larger. It did kind of make me laugh, but why would anyone go through the trouble of installing a mod that does that?

 

[Zloth]

Complexity of game systems: Seems like the B-level games (or whatever they call the small shops these days) have the most complex games.

Sexy stuff: sure, fine. Throwing in a topless woman just to get an M rating strikes me as dumb, but I'll take it over throwing in some gratuitous violence just to get an M rating.

 

[ZedClampet]

Complexity of game systems: Seems like the B-level games (or whatever they call the small shops these days) have the most complex games.

Sexy stuff: sure, fine. Throwing in a topless woman just to get an M rating strikes me as dumb, but I'll take it over throwing in some gratuitous violence just to get an M rating.

Is gratuitous violence something they actually look at? I know combining violence and sex is a problem.

****
@Pifanjr I didn't really want to continue this discussion, but I thought I would give you examples of solo developer games that I play since we are obviously picturing very different things. These are the ones I played recently:

Astro Colony on Steam

Explore endless Universe and create the most efficient constellation of colonies. Build conveyor systems to automate production. Take care of Astronauts and their needs! Establish new colonies as part of intergalactic simulation.

store.steampowered.com

Avorion on Steam

A procedural co-op space sandbox where players can build their own space ships out of dynamically scalable blocks. Fight epic space battles, explore, mine, trade, wage wars and build your own empire to save your galaxy from being torn apart by an unknown enemy.

store.steampowered.com

Kingdoms Reborn on Steam

A city builder with simulated citizens, set in a procedurally-generated world map. Grow your kingdom through the eras from a tiny medieval hamlet into a prosperous global empire! Cooperate or compete in real-time with your friends in multiplayer mode.

store.steampowered.com

InfraSpace on Steam

Create an extrasolar efficiency utopia from scratch! In this sci-fi city builder you need to start mining operations, plan production, and lay down transportation routes to ensure a smooth supply chain.

store.steampowered.com

Banished on Steam

In this city-building strategy game, you control a group of exiled travelers who decide to restart their lives in a new land. They have only the clothes on their backs and a cart filled with supplies from their homeland. The townspeople of Banished are your primary resource.

store.steampowered.com

 

[Zloth]

Is gratuitous violence something they actually look at?

Mortal Kombat certainly does.

 

[Pifanjr]

@Pifanjr I didn't really want to continue this discussion, but I thought I would give you examples of solo developer games that I play since we are obviously picturing very different things. These are the ones I played recently:

I agree, I would need to do a lot more research to make any serious claims about this topic. Even so, it's undeniable that solo developers/small development teams can create very interesting games which are often more innovative than triple A games.

 

[ZedClampet]

Edit on my above post. I'm deleting Colony Survival because it says in the description that it is a two-man team. I think the original guy just added an extra person because back when I talked to him, I could swear he was the only person working on the game. At least, that's the way I took what he said. I could have misunderstood.

It's a very interesting game, though, if anyone is into that sort of thing. Very well done. However, I very strongly recommend that if you are going to play it that you download the AntiFlood mod from the workshop. The way water works, it is very easy to move water from one location to another with irrigation ditches. However, that makes it also very easy to flood underground areas. If you had one block of water sitting above a massive underground base and you removed the block underneath it, it would fill the entire base with water. Yes, Guido did exactly that and it took forever to fix.

 

[ZedClampet]

I’m getting tired of sex and nudity in games. I am not against romance in games, but full on sex and nudity is so pointless and only cater to a small portion of players in my opinion. I was interested in Baldur’s Gate 3 but seeing how much sex and nudity is in it really turned me off (no pun intended) from playing the game. I understand you can censor it and a lot of it is optional features you don’t have to participate in, but that is like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound essentially. We don’t need nudity to prove to players the game they are playing is mature and made for adults. To me it adds nothing at all to any game that has it. Romance is fine, fade-to-black innuendo is fine, but to show genitals and intercourse is not okay with me. I also feel like a lot of times they portray the sexist trope of scantily clad women which is just not very appealing to a ton of people. Sure it can go the same way for portraying male sexual partners in games, but why not just remove it from the game entirely? Horny features made by horny developers for horny players. Not my type of game.

Looks like I was wrong (again). I haven't read this article because I'm avoiding spoilers, but I thought you might want to see it:

Baldur's Gate 3 is the horniest RPG I've ever played and honestly it's a bit much

Everyone wants to bone and I'm shy.

www.pcgamer.com

 

[neogunhero]

Looks like I was wrong (again). I haven't read this article because I'm avoiding spoilers, but I thought you might want to see it:

Baldur's Gate 3 is the horniest RPG I've ever played and honestly it's a bit much

Everyone wants to bone and I'm shy.

www.pcgamer.com

I read it and I agree with the author. We both think that sex in games can be used to elevate characters and stories when done tastefully. My original post was coming from a place where I haven’t played BG3 but have seen a lot of the adult themes in that game, and the article kind of validated my feelings towards it (although I have no played myself, just speculation). He goes to say that lots of party members in BG3 are fully willing to have relationships with any and all genders/races/species, and uses Dragon Age as an example of characters having their own preferences and tastes. I understand BG3 is catering to any type of character you make in the game and are able to have the chance to romance a party member no matter who you choose to play as which I admire, but on the other hand I really do like DA’s approach of making the characters more personal and realistic. Either way it really is just my opinion and I am happy for everyone who enjoys those aspects in games and not trying to bash anyone. I wish games could have an option to fully not include those features just like how they have optional censors you can toggle.

Where I really draw the line is when you are given the freedom and ability to go seek it out whenever you want, like how in GTA V you can go to nude clubs or pick up sex workers on the streets. That is just disgusting to me and adds nothing to any game. When it’s part of a plot or a characters story, there is actual meaning to it, although I still prefer it to entirely not be in games I play.

 

[DXCHASE]

I’m getting tired of sex and nudity in games. I am not against romance in games, but full on sex and nudity is so pointless and only cater to a small portion of players in my opinion. I was interested in Baldur’s Gate 3 but seeing how much sex and nudity is in it really turned me off (no pun intended) from playing the game. I understand you can censor it and a lot of it is optional features you don’t have to participate in, but that is like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound essentially. We don’t need nudity to prove to players the game they are playing is mature and made for adults. To me it adds nothing at all to any game that has it. Romance is fine, fade-to-black innuendo is fine, but to show genitals and intercourse is not okay with me. I also feel like a lot of times they portray the sexist trope of scantily clad women which is just not very appealing to a ton of people. Sure it can go the same way for portraying male sexual partners in games, but why not just remove it from the game entirely? Horny features made by horny developers for horny players. Not my type of game.

I believe that one of the bigger factors driving BG 3 is all this more so than the games RPG/D&D elements, or its turn-based combat. This kind of article was not surprising in the least to see either. Sex sells still.

The top Baldur's Gate 3 Twitch clips are streamers discovering it features full nudity

Surprise!

www.pcgamer.com

 

[neogunhero]

Sex sells still.

Always has and always will I suppose 🤷‍♂️

 

[Brian Boru]

Acc to DX's article above:
"you can turn off the genitals and nudity in BG3's settings"

Are you guys not finding this?

Options are a Good Thing!

 

[ZedClampet]

Acc to DX's article above:
"you can turn off the genitals and nudity in BG3's settings"

Are you guys not finding this?

Options are a Good Thing!

They don't bother me. I found the option because that's the first thing I do when I start a game is look through the options I didn't turn it on. I just watched a nude guy on a cross get dismembered in his "special place" in Outlast Trials and a guy stick a cattleprod to his genitalia. I've shoved orphans into a meat grinder and fixed them soups made of bleach. BG3 is going to have to try harder.