I'm tired of modern games... and modern gamers.

[Nocturnia]

Forgive me, but I need to vent a bit.

I’m so tired of modern games and modern gamers. When was it that games became nothing but business? What happened to games that weren’t made for profit? And, most importantly, when did gamers become slaves to corporate game design?

Although the odd gem from a small studio can still be found, games that offer social networks, such as live service games, seem to have completely succumbed to the influence of investors. I’m sure they think that it costs a lot of money to develop a game. Especially a live service game. It’s an argument I hear time and time again. And you know what? I’m sick of that, too.

Because it doesn’t cost nearly as much money as some would have us believe. The argument that it is expensive is based on the assumption that development must meet players’ “expectations.” However, those player expectations have been cultivated by the corporate game design. Linearity. Treadmills. The idea that “new” is better. The idea that players must receive some sort of tangible “reward” for their efforts — as if intrinsic reward is not already enough. The more ubiquitous this game design becomes, the more players start to think that this is normal and healthy. But you know what? It’s not.

At some point, we need to stop and ask ourselves: Why are we doing this? Why are we fighting this boss? Why are we building this town? Why are we exploring this world? Are we doing it for ourselves? Because we want to and because we actually enjoy the process? Or are we doing it because we want some shiny trinket or because we want some numbers on a page labeled “My Stats” to look higher? Because someone has designed the game to manipulate us into wanting those things, so that we can no longer even imagine enjoying the game without them?

Everywhere I look these days, I see only people, both devs and gamers, who can’t see beyond the screen the marketing associates have put in front of them. They consume the latest fad game or content and then toss it out just as quickly. They can’t see that a single game has or could have had endless hours of repeatable, quality content if only it wasn’t thrown away in order to dangle the latest carrot in front of the users.

So I implore you, see the carrot for what it is and reject it. If only enough people could see through the manipulation and reject it for their own homemade brand of fun, then the marketing teams would be forced to change, too. Game development and publishing as a business would have to go back to focusing on making good games instead of milking fads and making carrots to dangle in front of people.

 

[Colif]

Games were always made for profit... but I get what you mean. The desire to own your wallet has become too obvious in recent years.

small passion projects aside anyway. If its on Steam, they not there for charity (free games excluded).

. I’m sure they think that it costs a lot of money to develop a game.

Skull & Bones - 850 million
Concord - 400million+

sure doesn't look cheap to me

Why are we doing this? Why are we fighting this boss? Why are we building this town? Why are we exploring this world? Are we doing it for ourselves?

Why are we doing it?
Cause its meant to be fun...

stats aren't necessarily bad, it might depend if they tied to necessary completion.

A game I used to play had a stat for map discovery and it was fun to try to uncover as much as possible. It wasn't essential, it was just part of game. People wanting to complete things for trophies is what took all the fun out of completion. It should just be optional. Not required.

trophies in games are as real as the awards won by the games. You can't hold them, they only exist as long as service does, and nothing is forever. So why collect things you can't keep?

 

[Brian Boru]

What happened to games that weren’t made for profit?

I feel your eloquent frustration and sympathize, but nothing's happened to non-profit games. My guess is they outnumber paid games, probably by a lot on mobile. My daily quick game is the free Picross Touch, I've played over 2,000 levels of it so far—most are community built levels.

Why are we doing this? Why are we fighting this boss?

I can only speak for myself, but I do it for fun. But I'm certainly not typical, so your point stands. Boss fights I avoid unless they stick to the gameplay which has been the rest of the game—my beef is boss fights which change the gameplay, or for that matter other game segments where the devs introduce some other genre for no obvious reason.

They consume the latest fad game or content and then toss it out just as quickly

Agreed, consumption seems to have taken over from intrinsic enjoyment. My gaming quest is to find games to replay—and once I find such gems, they live in my library and 'to play' list for a long time—I played a couple of hours of 2005's Civ 4 last night, and a couple of 2021's Far Cry 6 shortly after. I think FC6 is the newest game I own, certainly the newest big game.

homemade brand of fun

That's the thing for me, finding new ways to play the same game.

Game development and publishing as a business would have to go back

Won't happen. Marketing exists because it works.

why collect things you can't keep?

That's what screenshots are for!

 

[Colif]

That's what screenshots are for!

screenshots aren't forever unless you have a printer that uses the right ink, or perhaps one linked to a 3d printer and somehow make it a Diorama.

 

[Zloth]

So I implore you, see the carrot for what it is and reject it.

I think it's you that's getting manipulated. Have you thought about what you are asking for?

Yes, there was a time when games almost on-par with commercial games could be done by one guy with some free time. When there's only 16KB of usable memory, it isn't like there's a lot of room to work in. One person working in his free time could do it.

Now, it takes a lot more time. You'll be asking for a whole team of people to burn their free time for years. It does still happen, though some of them are "once removed" where you have a commercial product that has a ton of free content.

• The Dark Project. Basically, a clone of the old Thief games with oodles of free content.
• City of Heroes. Used to be for-profit but NCSoft gave up on it, then let players run their own servers. Donations are requested, though. (Essentially, it's a shareware MMO at this point.)
• Dwarf Fortress. The graphics version on Steam costs something, but the original ASCII-graphics version is still going strong. Some other ancient games of that era are, too (e.g. NetHack).

Don't like any of those? No surprise. You should expect that kind of thing when people are making games for themselves more than an audience.

The simple fact is that really good games are HARD TO MAKE. You're going to have to pay people to do them. A whole lot of them, if you want it to be really fancy.

At some point, we need to stop and ask ourselves: Why are we doing this? Why are we fighting this boss?

Because it's fun. Usually.

Why are we building this town?

Because it's fun.

Why are we exploring this world?

Because it's really fun! Amazing how much fun I can have exploring even a simple area.

Are we doing it for ourselves?

Yeah, pretty much. I might experiment a little to answer a question for somebody or to put something in a guide, but that's got to around 1% of the time spent.

Because we want to and because we actually enjoy the process?

Or if I'll enjoy some other process later (grinding), but I only have so much patience for that.

Or are we doing it because we want some shiny trinket or because we want some numbers on a page labeled “My Stats” to look higher?

Shiny? How shiny? Animated shiny? Animated shiny with ray tracing!!? I'll do a lot for animated shiny ray tracing. Stats can be nice, depending on what challenge is ahead - they are a means to an end, though.

Because someone has designed the game to manipulate us into wanting those things, so that we can no longer even imagine enjoying the game without them?

Wait, what are you talking about? Because it's starting to sound more like you are talking about "skinner-box" style mobile games.

 

[Pifanjr]

Wait, what are you talking about? Because it's starting to sound more like you are talking about "skinner-box" style mobile games.

I believe the point was that "modern games" have started to feel more and more like skinner-boxes. And I see his point, it does feel like it's more common for games to constantly bombard players with rewards to keep them engaged and for players to keep engaging with content they don't even enjoy for some reward they probably never look at again.

And of course there are still plenty of games that don't suffer from this, both old and new games, but it can be frustrating to see a promising game that is ruined by the inclusion of skinner-box mechanics and knowing that if players had rejected these mechanics when they were introduced we wouldn't be in this situation now.

 

[Ankit705288]

Because someone has designed the game to manipulate us into wanting those things, so that we can no longer even imagine enjoying the game without them?

 

[Nocturnia]

I believe the point was that "modern games" have started to feel more and more like skinner-boxes. And I see his point, it does feel like it's more common for games to constantly bombard players with rewards to keep them engaged and for players to keep engaging with content they don't even enjoy for some reward they probably never look at again.

And of course there are still plenty of games that don't suffer from this, both old and new games, but it can be frustrating to see a promising game that is ruined by the inclusion of skinner-box mechanics and knowing that if players had rejected these mechanics when they were introduced we wouldn't be in this situation now.

This is not exactly what I meant, but it's close enough that if people actually understand if they read your post, then that's fine. To be honest, I was not even planning on coming back to this after the initial response. In fact, I didn't even write it planning to discuss anything. I just wrote it to vent, because writing stuff helps me deal with the frustration. It's a way to get it out. I think a lot of people didn't get it, and it didn't help that I phrased it in a way (using direct pronouns like "you") that made some people feel like it was a personal attack or something, and that was not the intent.

My point is just about a lack of faith in intrinsic reward in games (and life in general, to be honest). And that does get into the whole "skinner box" thing (I'd never actually heard that term before). And it's about games as business versus games as art. To give some examples... think about the difference between Starbucks and a local artisan's coffee shop in a small town run by the owner only. What is the objective of each business? One is there to serve coffee because they love it. They make enough to get by, and that's enough because their goal isn't to profit. The other may once have started out that way, but has long since become about making money. And yet, the majority of people prefer Starbucks to their local artisan. Is Starbucks actually better? I guess some people may think so, but is that really because the product is better or because of all the advertising, social expectations, and popularity?

I felt the need to vent so much because... well, a lot of different reasons really, but as far as games are concerned, one of my old standbys is a Korean MMO called Vindictus (a.k.a. Mabinogi Heroes). If you think a person like me playing that kind of game sounds insane... well, at this point you'd be right. But once upon a time, it was a lot more artful. And questions of art versus business aside, the reason the game is not completely dead in the west yet is because its combat is so good. However, the publisher (the infamous Nexon) milks whales for money instead of leaning into what always made the game great.

Does a game like Vindictus actually need all those MMO marketing tools? I mean, more single-player action combat experiences like Sekiro and Elden Ring don't have much or any of that kind of stuff, at least as far as I can tell (although I have not actually played them, so if this is wrong someone please correct me). People fight the bosses because it's fun. It's a challenge. The devs provide extra challenge bosses or modes, but beyond that the players are the ones who decide what to do and who set their own challenges.

Live service multiplayer games do cost a lot of money to upkeep. But I am simply questioning whether they need much or any more input than simply the initial development cost (which can be a lot lower if they don't go for hyper-realism) and the upkeep on the servers. It's high time that more games start letting players set their own goals instead of worrying that players will quit if they have to take responsibility for their own fun.