Question Does Zos Even Care?

[Erinyes]

I'm neither a novice or pro gamer but I'm new to pvp. My exposure is thru the Zenimax/Bethesda title Elder Scrolls Online.

I leveled my character thru the pve story quests & a few months back decided I wanted to make the jump into pvp. Wow talk about a rude awakening!

The blatent mysogyny & elitism in the zone chat was staggering. Here I was thinking a game company that prided itself on it's inclusivety (winning awards for it no less) would not have such toxicity so blatently on show by it's players. I of course reported the most disgusting comments.

Now I am horrified by a practice that apparently is as old as on line gaming itself: teabagging

The name alone is shudder inducing. I mean killing someone in game feels bad enough but to degrade the corpse like that (taking into account I play as a necromancer!) is beyond distasteful. As a female gamer it's down right offensive.

But to make matters worse, it seems mutiple offenders who have been reported to Zos, have received no punishment, not even an in game gold fine, forget an outright suspension. The whole thing is laughed at by the so called veteran gamers as boys being boys, even as I suspect, the boys in question are actually men.

I think if a game company is going to accept awards for inclusivety they should be required to actually "BE INCLUSIVE"

Teabagging is disgusting & VERY disrespectful. It's misogynist & deeply offensive.

 

[Inspireless Llama]

I think it could be an interesting discussion. While I agree that it's disrespectful towards a female gamer, with online actions you'll rarely know wether it was to actually offend you, or as a matter of ingame taunting. Especially if people don't know wether you're a female or not I think it's hard to decide what it is. Now I don't know what the issue was in your case. I'm not trying to defend them since all taunts I use are in Dota2 and that's just heroes doing certain animation, nowhere near teabagging or even sexual looking.

Spoiler

Unfortunately I think sexual harassment is really something that's in gaming. I'm not sure why but until this day it seems so much like a boy's / man's hobby where females aren't allowed. I don't think that will change anytime soon . If any, I think that with VR it's getting worse or it will get worse. I've read articles of females playing VR where they got sexually assaulted by players grabbing their virtual private zones. I don't agree with that at all, it's nasty but it happens unfortunately.

Personally I have quite a few females on my friendslist on Steam (I think), basically 10% of them is female, and I've asked several how they think I act towards them because I got curious. They all say that I don't seem to be treating them different than I treat my male friends (which means that I can make offensive comments, but they're in the same league as all my comments). I do think that's a compliment to my adress

Besides that in a more general way, I basically think that someone doesn't want to be offended, they shouldn't play PvP or competitive games. I don't think there's a single game that's PvP or competitive where there's not a toxic community. I think it's nearly impossible to ban out too, but I think some companies said they were going to start acting against that. I'm not sure if that's specifically meant towards sexual harrasment though.

 

[OsaX Nymloth]

Geeesh, it's one of these (I roll eyes whenever I see "***" (why is Social Justice Warrior censored lol), feel free to send hate mail my way). Can online games be toxic? Well, yeah - and usually it's best to steer clear from general chats, as they're dens of trolls. I would recommend treating games as such - games. Somebody says stupid **** and tries to "taunt" you? Mute him, carry on. You are here to have fun and enjoy yourself and if some losers is vying for attention in such lowly manner, muting and reporting is what he/she deserves. Or kick from server, if such option exist.

Trolling and this kind of messages/behaviour have been in games since forever (well, since multiplayer became a big thing) and there isn't really a way to make it disappear. Some games have it worse, depends on how devs treat the issue. For example Mordhau while is great game, the chat is a cesspit. I am not really offended in general by anything, since I never take seriously anything written to me in games, but I know the "grow thicker skin" may not please some people. At best I may laugh at somebody raging, at worst I just shrug it off and have pleasure cutting somebody's head off.

As for females.... really, I don't get how "low" one have to be to react differently to somebody just because they're girls. Maybe it's because I am such nihilist that nothing matters. Or maybe it's because I've played with girls for years, treating them as anybody else and judging only on their actions not on appearance, religion, skin color or whatever. That said I get why so many girls prefer to hide their gender online.

In short: nothing will probably be done and not much can be done. If company tries to go full offensive vs trolls and toxic behaviour, it will literally lose money. And game companies are still there for profit.

 

[Red059]

I agree with you guys. I know how bed it's feel when you become victim of harassment in online game. There also hate comments made by them. I am also victim of hate comments. I think this should be stop. But I don't think all the boys are bed. I am also a boy. I don't haras anyone. I have friends who are boys and they are good. BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE (MAN AND WOMAN) WHO ARE REALLY BED.

 

[Erinyes]

I suppose my biggest disappointment is probably that most guys think that a toxic environment is normal. Like somehow that mean racist, misogynist jerks are par for the course. The first problem seems to be to make guys see bad behaviour as bad behaviour & call it out instead of telling offended players to just "take it on the chin" (yes that was a very blatant reference to the teabagging in my original post.

Game developers are first and foremost about the money, as long as they get paid, they don't care, I get that, but players in game are paying to play, so why should a few trolls ruin it for everyone? This will not be fixed quickly or by a few players complaining. It needs more players to simply call out bad behaviour & stand up for those who are getting it the worst.

Bad players are bad players to everyone, so why is no one calling them out on it in game?

 

[OsaX Nymloth]

I am too old I guess to care.
Back in the days (see? only old man starts with this line!) there were actually tools for what you want. It was called custom community servers. Clan owning the server made rules and if such clan didn't tolerate bad behaviour, they would kick anyone trashtalking from their server.

Now with only official servers, where community managers can't/don't want to act with full force, you really don't have such options and power. Unless you gather enough people to vote kick douchebags.

Why not calling them for what they say? 'cause that's what they want. They want reaction, your attention. "oh you felt offended by my slur? Exactly what I wanted! Now that I have your attention and ruined your game I will throw more bs your way!".

 

[Erinyes]

I am too old I guess to care.
Back in the days (see? only old man starts with this line!) there were actually tools for what you want. It was called custom community servers. Clan owning the server made rules and if such clan didn't tolerate bad behaviour, they would kick anyone trashtalking from their server.

Now with only official servers, where community managers can't/don't want to act with full force, you really don't have such options and power. Unless you gather enough people to vote kick douchebags.

Why not calling them for what they say? 'cause that's what they want. They want reaction, your attention. "oh you felt offended by my slur? Exactly what I wanted! Now that I have your attention and ruined your game I will throw more bs your way!".

Your privellage is showing. Either players like you call out bad behaviour or you are allowing it (possibly even taking part in it).

The excuse "this is how it's always been" is a massive cop-out. We do a lot of things differently, taunts don't need to be so offensive.

I use a "sweep" emote to denote "cleaning up the trash", it fulfills the same job without being so offensive. We should be demanding better, not accepting mediocrity.

 

[Inspireless Llama]

I suppose my biggest disappointment is probably that most guys think that a toxic environment is normal. Like somehow that mean racist, misogynist jerks are par for the course. The first problem seems to be to make guys see bad behaviour as bad behaviour & call it out instead of telling offended players to just "take it on the chin" (yes that was a very blatant reference to the teabagging in my original post.

Game developers are first and foremost about the money, as long as they get paid, they don't care, I get that, but players in game are paying to play, so why should a few trolls ruin it for everyone? This will not be fixed quickly or by a few players complaining. It needs more players to simply call out bad behaviour & stand up for those who are getting it the worst.

Bad players are bad players to everyone, so why is no one calling them out on it in game?

I think most people know when they're having bad behavious. Even I (while I think I'm not really that toxic) show bad behaviour sometimes. That's more when I get frustrated in games though. There are just people who enjoy ruining the game for other people. I don't get why, but yeah, they are there. There were / are hackers in GTA5 Online who's only purpose was not to hack to make themselves OP, but to hack and get other players banned because they got "illegal" money. I am not someone who will call them out or report them because if I don't enjoy a game, I'll start playing something else. I don't feel like these people bully me away but I'm not sticking arround somewhere I don't enjoy.

I do think if the problems get serious enough developers will want to act though, but I can imagine it's pretty hard to do. But they don't want it happen if too many people think the game gets toxic and be like "I'm not getting their next game because they don't deal with it". If I take Dota2 for an example again, if I play a few games there but I have a single bad day where I react to others, I get reported alot, does that make me an all-time player with bad behaviour? I don't think so. I don't think developers want to ban people for a single incident. What you experienced, the other play may have done that once and never again. I don't know.

Personally I'd be in for a zero-tolerance policy for toxic behaviour though. But that shouldn't be incidental being toxic. Get reported enough and receive a lifetime ban. But then the game would need to have clear rules.

@Erinyes as to your latest comment, I kinda agree with @OsaX Nymloth that it's difficult (or even impossible) to solve. People think they can get away with everything when it's online, so why would they care about being called out? They will mute you (or whoever else is calling them out) and continue whatever they're doing. Reporting and leaving (switch server or whatever) probably is best. They probably won't follow you.

Also, I do think taunts need to be offensive. That's the whole point of taunting. But that's something else than being sexually harrassed, which was the idea you gave originally.

"Taunt - a remark made in order to anger, wound, or provoke someone. "

 

[Zloth]

There are just people who enjoy ruining the game for other people. I don't get why, but yeah, they are there.

What? When you're feeling down, bring somebody else down further than you. Then at least you aren't in last place anymore! It's been playing out in every schoolyard since there have been schoolyards. Most kids figure out that it's really a bad idea when you take everyone's feelings into account and abandon the tactic (I believe the colloquial term is "being a meany"). Others, not so much.

Edit: Oh! I forgot the topic! Yeah, the devs do care. But not enough to stop making money from it, which is probably the only way they're going to fix it at this point. They could try banning everyone but that takes a lot of research (if they just ban on anyone's say-so then the griefers will start reporting everyone). When you do ban them, they just get a new credit card and come back in.

 

[Dan]

I'm just shocked that people think teabagging is misogynistic when the act is done on everyone, and not targeted at women.

It is just a way of saying that you 'bested' that person, in a game where you cannot talk to the enemy team. I don't partake in the act, because me killing them is all I need, but I would never get offended if someone (and they do) does it to me. Never play Halo, I'll tell you that.

Abuse and/or rude comments in a text chat/voice chat, that is an entirely different matter. If you have experienced that in ESO, then you have unfortunately found the village idiots in the game. ESO is one of the most inclusive, diverse, communities I've ever been a part of.

As much as it shames me to say it, because it shouldn't have to be this way, but if you are playing online games, or spending time on the internet, you just have to grow a thick skin. Don't let the extremely small percentage of people change your perception on everyone else.

 

[Mknott]

Edit: Oh! I forgot the topic! Yeah, the devs do care. But not enough to stop making money from it, which is probably the only way they're going to fix it at this point. They could try banning everyone but that takes a lot of research (if they just ban on anyone's say-so then the griefers will start reporting everyone). When you do ban them, they just get a new credit card and come back in.

Research into this is actually something I know a lot about from direct experience. Essentially you're fighting perception rather than reality in a lot of cases and even when significant strides are made toward improving the experience, the strong memory of those games that were awful stand out.

Permanently banning the people who refuse to change is only one option, you also have to account for the "one bad days" - people who are normally fine but are tetchy because of work or just grumpy - because a poor experience in one game can lead to a domino effect where the bad feeling persists into the next from other players. It spreads and is incredibly difficult to resolve. Even when significant strides are made to eliminate hate speech and improve behaviour overall, the perception remains that people are bringing toxicity to the table when the vast majority of people are super chill.

People often assume it's just a matter of banning, but that only gets you so far because the people out to ruin your day or using extreme hate speech are a significant minority.

Companies are in the difficult position of wanting to improve the play experience while also facing the reality that even if they move the needle toward good by a healthy amount and win big wars on toxicity the playerbase will still encounter a bad game at some point and it doesn't feel like progress is made. It's in every devs interest to handle toxicity because it undermines retention and takes away from the gameplay - but doing so can be a thankless task without a real endpoint.

Devs absolutely do care, they play the games they make and I can't tell you how many times I've seen people frustrated with their own creation because of in game behaviour. Changing that behaviour in games that weren't built from the ground up to encourage empathy and civility is glacial, strategies are varied and so it looks like they don't care

It's worth keeping in mind that our personal experience is just that - our own. What wouldn't ruin a game for me might make it feel uncomfortable for other people and I don't have any issue personally with thinking on why that might be. It's educational and challenging ourselves to think differently is not an attack.

With that said, I'm going to close this thread - not because I don't see value in discussion of game behaviour, it's a crazy interesting topic close to my heart, but because this specific question might get a better answer from the ESO team and the general discussion is turning contentious and veering into politics.