October 2024 General Game Discussion Thread

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Colif said:
almost real
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Something about it seems... Off. Neat, if true, but feels suspect.

That said, I note that they don't include any NPCs walking the streets, which would completely and utterly destroy the illusion, as it does in the game now. Nothing takes me out of the experience more than seeing the same 8 NPCs doing the same 5 different animations.

I've been getting back into CP this week, but sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't have been better as a linear game.
 
If you've had any curiosity about the shop games that came out this year, this is the one to try: TCG Card Shop Simulator is an awesome retail business game, and is getting better and better. Thousands of trading cards, all with original art. Soon you'll actually be able to sit with your customers and play the TCG.

But you sell 8 different packs of cards (soon to be 14). You can open packs of cards yourself, both to add to your collection and to find valuable cards to sell. You can put the cards you don't want into bulk card boxes for sale. You can also place tables and chairs for customers to come in and have a place to meet and play against other customers.

Besides packs and individual cards (plus bulk boxes), you sell various containers for customers to keep their cards in, plus the big collection books. You sell dice, tabletop games, comics, play mats and figurines. They are adding more all the time.

You can do all the usual retail things, like hiring different types of employees, running the register, ordering stock, expanding your store, buying and placing fixtures, etc.

Also, there is an active modding community.
 
BeardyHat said:
That said, I note that they don't include any NPCs walking the streets, which would completely and utterly destroy the illusion, as it does in the game now. Nothing takes me out of the experience more than seeing the same 8 NPCs doing the same 5 different animations.
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expect its more a show case. The GPU can do this but the CPU is another matter, so probably why there are duplicates as its easier to process. Hence no crowds.... its just, look how pretty environments and some things can be. Scaling it up is not there yet.
 
Colif said:
expect its more a show case. The GPU can do this but the CPU is another matter, so probably why there are duplicates as its easier to process. Hence no crowds.... its just, look how pretty environments and some things can be. Scaling it up is not there yet.
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It's just a frustrating aspect that drags me out of the game world whenever I play. I like the game, but it's weird how lifeless it feels, when the lack of NPC behavior isn't terribly different from other RPGs.

It's a confusing feeling for me when I'm simultaneously playing KOTOR2, which is just as lifeless, but doesn't feel that way. Maybe it's just the graphical fidelity of Cyberpunk really makes that issue standout.
 
(I wrote this reply for a thread about Satisfactory that got deleted, so I'm putting it here).

I've always thought Satisfactory seemed interesting, but I just realized something. While I like having my stuff automated in my current modded Minecraft game, most of the time I just can't be bothered to set it up. And it's because most games give you terrible tools to automate with.

I ran into this issue in Minecraft yesterday when I automated input into a machine from a chest. The machine can process different kinds of items, but only one type at a time. The problem is that for some item types it needs, for example, 5 items to start working, which means that if there are only 3 left in the machine it gets stuck even though there is a stack of a different item type ready to be processed.

But the game doesn't give you a way to solve this (easily). There might be a workaround possible but it's probably going to take more work than just making one machine per item type you want to process, which itself is a bother as well.

While writing code I have so much control over what I do with my inputs and outputs that it becomes really annoying when I don't have that control.

Another issue is that I don't like having to deal with wires and conveyor belts and such. In code I can just freely send input and output where it needs to go without having to worry about how much space it takes up or stuff getting in each other's way. And moving stuff around to free up space is usually a major hassle.
 
Colif said:
probably. I expect in a few years they can make believable crowds, sure beats cut outs like the ones in old racing games.
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I guess my problem with it is that I've seen better. I grant that these are significantly smaller games, but you have stuff like Gothic with NPCs that have routines, places to live, places to work, etc. That was 20 years ago.

Kingdom Come: Deliverance has the same and that was only 2 years before Cyberpunk.

I'd honestly be more willing to forgive this aspect of Cyberpunk if they did something like Hitman when it comes to crowds, but there are so few NPCs, it all feels very much like set dressing. I loaded my game yesterday only to see the same exact NPC 4 times only a few steps from each other. Again,I think I'd be more willing to forgive this if it was just generally more crowded, which would obfuscate the issue, but you really only have a handful of NPCs in any given area and the same goes for cars. I live in a midsize city and we have more traffic and people than is represented in supposedly packed Night City.

Again, still like the game. Even after loading that save, I still played for an hour, did some quests and enjoyed myself, eager to play more as I have time. It's just these weird little things that pull me out of the game I'm trying to come to terms with.
 
I guess the focus is on making them look real... sure, lots of clones. IN the past it was about making world seem believable based on actions of NPC, now its all about flashy graphics and making the futuristic city look real or close to real.

Gameplay taking back seat, still. Need more cores in CPU's and more games that use them all before we get realistic looking NPC who have entire life stories and work schedules. It will happen at some stage. Not while consoles only have 16 threads to use... need way more... 32cores/64 threads is probably enough to make a believable world.
 
Colif said:
Gameplay taking back seat, still. Need more cores in CPU's and more games that use them all before we get realistic looking NPC who have entire life stories and work schedules. It will happen at some stage. Not while consoles only have 16 threads to use... need way more... 32cores/64 threads is probably enough to make a believable world.
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Nah. X4 has thousands of NPCs flying around, doing all sorts of trading, which affects the economy of the entire universe. They even get into battles! And it's all done on one core.

The key is doing something a lot like the "level of detail" you see done with graphics. When they are close enough for the player to see, they get lots of detail in their calculations. Ship turrets have to take the time to point at their targets, ships need to fly around asteroids, and so on. Outside of that area, far fewer details are calculated, so ships can sail right through asteroids and each other.

The same could certainly be done for a game like Cyberpunk. It would be even easier, as the NPCs don't really fight or trade with each other, they just wander along a set path at set times. It wouldn't be easy, of course, just easier. If the player drives into an area with 40 cars that have been cruising right through each other and now need to fit on the road, it's going to take some fast calculations.
 
Zloth said:
If the player drives into an area with 40 cars that have been cruising right through each other and now need to fit on the road, it's going to take some fast calculations.
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I'm not sure how it works in CP2070. I doubt that those 40 cars were being simulated at all--even just driving through each other--until the player showed up.

Take a game like No Man's Sky. The game remembers what was going on the last time a human was in an area and is constantly predicting where the humans are going. So you have a mining operation set up somewhere. It doesn't exist when you leave. But if the game realizes you are coming back, it rebuilds the area and calculates how long you've been gone and how many resources should be waiting for you. Since computers calculate so fast, it's not noticeable by the player.

There's also the Minecraft way of doing it, where stuff outside of your area disappears except for your base, which is always running. In Craftopia, they let you craft beacons which you can set up in areas that let the game know that this area should be constantly simulated even if you aren't there.

But then there's something like Forza, which is more like what you describe. The AI cars never disappear and do what you are talking about. They are driving through assets, plowing through hills, etc. They are staying near the track at all times. I guess this is because too much can happen quickly with a bunch of players in the game simultaneously, but it even does it during singleplayer.

But I think something like CP2070 has too much to simulate to keep track of cars and NPCs walking around even if they can't bump into anything. Maybe it depends on how far away you are. Maybe they aren't there at all. Then you get somewhat closer, and they spawn and start mindlessly running through things. Then you actually arrive and they start obeying another set of rules.

Note: there was no point to this. I just find this sort of thing interesting.
 
Spent about 2-hours playing Cyberpunk, in bed, on my Steam Deck last night and I have to say, it just feels right. Sure I have a competent gaming rig with a 165hz monitor, but I get so much more immersed when I'm playing at 30FPS on a 7-inch screen, couldn't tell you why.

Alternatively, I've also been noticing that my current keyboard and mouse setup at my desk tends to aggravate my new found carpel tunnel. It feels like it's been more prominent since I bought a mechanical keyboard a couple months ago, but I'm not sure if that's coincidence or the keyboard itself. It doesn't seem to be a problem when I use my laptop, whether that's typing or even playing FPS games on it; maybe my wrists are just in a better position on my laptop, but perhaps I'll switch back to my old keyboard for awhile and see how that goes.

All that leads me to the fact that I think I actually prefer to play games with a gamepad these days, with some exceptions. I think 20-year old me would be horrified at the development.
 
More Minecraft again.

Found out our Cleric villager will trade gold ingots for emeralds. It took 3 ingots per trade, I gave him so many that there is now a big red X over the trade button for gold ingots. I did manage to get over 30 emeralds form him though which is super useful for trading with the other villagers. I was able to trade them for a ton of ender pearls, which we then crafted into Eye of Enders, so we can find a stronghold to take us to the Enderdragon. We aren’t prepared for that yet, but getting really good gear and potions is the only thing stopping us from defeating the Enderdragon. I think we will really go through with it, since in previous phases of us playing Mincraft we didn’t make it that far.

The hardest thing right now is finding netherite and weapon trims. The trims that are required to turn diamond weapons into netherite are only found in massive fortresses called Bastion Remnants in the Nether which have treasure rooms at the bottom that contain the upgrade trims. Nether Fortresses and Bastion Remnants are very similar but do have key differences, and I don’t believe we’ve found a Bastion Remnant yet.

Besides that, we’ve been having a fox infestation problem, I tried to cage them in but somehow they escaped and now are just being annoying to the villagers and other animals.
 
I played some more Minecraft Craftoria today. I now have a pickaxe with silk touch so I get ore blocks instead of raw ores, most of which I can turn into 4-8 raw ores, each of which get turned into 6 ingots. After a bit of a mining excursion I should have enough resources to last me a while. Now I just have to turn these resources into machines that passively generate even more ores, so I never have to mine again.

I realised I've done very little exploring this game. I did explore an underground tunnel system when I just started, but that gave me so much loot I didn't really need to explore any further. I've just had a couple of mining excursions since then, but I don't think I've moved more than a hundred blocks above ground from my house since I started.

neogunhero said:
More Minecraft again.

Found out our Cleric villager will trade gold ingots for emeralds. It took 3 ingots per trade, I gave him so many that there is now a big red X over the trade button for gold ingots.
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I ran into this problem myself. I took all this time to set up a system to turn emeralds into diamonds only for the cartographer to refuse to take any more paper. Then also refused to take any more glass panes. Now he just wants compasses.

There are a weaponsmith and butcher as well, but they want coal and rabbit meat respectively, which are a lot harder to farm than paper or glass panes.

Apparently their trades reset when they get back to their tool station, but all of my villagers are stuck in an oil puddle, so I'll have to move them manually if I need more emeralds/diamonds.

Besides that, we’ve been having a fox infestation problem, I tried to cage them in but somehow they escaped and now are just being annoying to the villagers and other animals.
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I have a bit of a chicken infestation. I had a quest to make an auto-feeder block and decided to throw a full stack of seeds in it because my seed chest was overflowing. After refilling it twice there's now around 100 chickens roaming around my house.

I'm not complaining though, I really like Minecraft chickens. One of my favourite mods adds chickens that lay different types of resources, which you can cross-breed to unlock new types of chickens. There's a similar one for bees as well, which is a lot more complex and includes genetic manipulation.
 
Pifanjr said:
I ran into this problem myself. I took all this time to set up a system to turn emeralds into diamonds only for the cartographer to refuse to take any more paper. Then also refused to take any more glass panes. Now he just wants compasses.

There are a weaponsmith and butcher as well, but they want coal and rabbit meat respectively, which are a lot harder to farm than paper or glass panes.

Apparently their trades reset when they get back to their tool station, but all of my villagers are stuck in an oil puddle, so I'll have to move them manually if I need more emeralds/diamonds.
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I need to level up my Cartographer to get some diamonds, that would be very handy. We’ve got enough iron and redstone to make tons of compasses, but emeralds are harder to come by.

With the cleric, its first level was 32 rotten flesh for 1 emerald. By far that was probably the villager that took the longest to get out of the first level. I set some time aside to grind out killing mobs to collect a ton of rotten flesh, it was very time consuming. When I saw they also took gold ingots I got excited because we had two full stacks of gold blocks.
Pifanjr said:
I have a bit of a chicken infestation. I had a quest to make an auto-feeder block and decided to throw a full stack of seeds in it because my seed chest was overflowing. After refilling it twice there's now around 100 chickens roaming around my house.

I'm not complaining though, I really like Minecraft chickens. One of my favourite mods adds chickens that lay different types of resources, which you can cross-breed to unlock new types of chickens. There's a similar one for bees as well, which is a lot more complex and includes genetic manipulation.
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We play on vanilla Bedrock so chickens are only useful as a source of food and to make arrows to us. Our chicken coop has a good 15-30 chickens, it would be very useful if we had that same mod to transform them to different resource spawners.

Is it possible to breed/capture bees? I avoid them whenever I see them because I didn’t think they had any use besides stinging you.
 
I started ticking off some of the quests on Minecraft and suddenly realised I had no motivation to keep playing. I can get pretty much any resource I want whenever I want, which means there's no real challenge left. It would just be a bunch of busy work to complete the rest of the quests. So I quit.

neogunhero said:
Is it possible to breed/capture bees? I avoid them whenever I see them because I didn’t think they had any use besides stinging you.
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Yes, you can capture and breed them. They make crops grow faster and they produce honey.

To capture them, you can break an existing beehive with a silk touch tool while the bees are inside. Alternatively, you can plant a bunch of sapling within 2 blocks of a flower, which gives them a 5% chance to spawn a beehive when they grow.
 
ZedClampet said:
I'm not sure how it works in CP2070. I doubt that those 40 cars were being simulated at all--even just driving through each other--until the player showed up.
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Yep, that's how it is. In fact, I posted a video a few months ago showing cars vanish completely when I look away and then look back!

I was just saying that I think it was technically possible for them to put NPC schedules and a little rudimentary AI into the game, along the lines of the old Gothic games (and Oblivion?). It wouldn't have been easy and probably would have cost us some other game systems, but technically I think it was feasible.

Otto Levin said:
Yeah, I think you're right. Thank you 👍
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Oh! I thought you were asking if we weren't playing yet because we're still waiting for reviews, which would be an odd reason after all this time.

We had a whole ton of reactions over in this thread.
 
@Pifanjr @neogunhero You all need to get into redstone if you aren't already. Also, an automatic chicken spawner/cooker is super simple to make, gets you endless cooked chicken and feathers. (if you already have a lot of chickens)

But before I got exhausted of Minecraft I did a bunch of things with redstone--mob spawners, auto doors automatic farms, etc. It really extends the life of the game if you can get into it. It's also fun to spawn in a few command blocks and see what all you can do with those.

I did a bunch of custom Hunger Game maps (this was before battle royale became popular), where it would automatically spawn some items that you had to race other players for and then have a fight to the death. Of course, it would also spawn the players in to begin with so no one had an advantage. Did a lot of redstone in these maps.

I also did some custom dungeon maps using redstone and command blocks, and the kids would spawn in at the beginning and have to make it to the end. Were some light puzzles and a bunch of monsters to fight. Was a lot of fun making them.

What I'm trying to say is, if you get bored of the game, there's a lot more game there that you might be interested in.
 
Zloth said:
I was just saying that I think it was technically possible for them to put NPC schedules and a little rudimentary AI into the game, along the lines of the old Gothic games (and Oblivion?). It wouldn't have been easy and probably would have cost us some other game systems, but technically I think it was feasible.
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I don't remember precisely, but seems I heard this was a major complaint people had, that they wanted the NPCs to have simulated lives rather than just hang out in the same place all the time waiting for the player. Honestly, I haven't played that many modern RPGs, so it wasn't something I noticed. Ubisoft seems to be pretty good for this sort of thing, though. I think the many thousands of Parisians in AC Unity all had their own schedules. Or maybe they just appeared to have their own schedules. I didn't pay close enough attention to know whether they really did or whether they just walked around randomly all the time.
 
I FINALLY am getting around to Aliens: Dark Descent and have to say it’s a great game. My first go at it I was thinking how dumb it was cause I figured I was supposed to engage the xenos like xcom… and then I realized I was the dumb one cause in no Alien movie are people like, “yeah let’s see how many times we can survive an onslaught of xenos.”

The sneaking around the levels is pretty clever and although the combat could use some polishing I think they really captured the vibe of James Cameron’s Aliens.

I had to take a break from Elden Ring SOTE because I was going a little too hard into it and was starting to feel like it was becoming a little bit of a grind. Always a good point to step away because even the best games get grindy if you keep playing them non-stop.
 
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