Civilization 5 playing it Wide w Raging Barbarians

[Brian Boru]

Thanks to the esteemed Mr @Zloth I reinstalled Civ 5 and got 100 turns in without feeling the need to reroll yet. Steam says it's 7 years since I played it last, so I can't blame my memory too much that it feels almost like a new game.

Wide v Tall​

Civ 5 is known to favor a Tall strategy—ie build a few mega cities, optimal number 4 or 5 if I recall correctly. That doesn't appeal to me, I like my empire, so I've mostly ignored 5 in favor of 4 and 6.

However 4's combat is poor with the 'Stack of Doom'—no @Johnway, relax, not that Doom—while 6 is a mess of complications masquerading as strategy… still fun of course for me, but only with very heavy customization. 5 doesn't get in the way like 6, and its one unit per tile combat change is a godsend. If it really is playable wide, it could be great.

Install​

Strange that a 2010-2013 game defaulted my 2017 PC with a 1060 card to generally Low graphic settings, despite Recommended specs being far below mine. Remember ATI? The graphics card company AMD bought to get into that game—well ATI is one of the Recommended cards, that's how old this game is!

Needs about 8GB on disk for Vanilla + expansions G&K and BNW. Yeah, just eight, there isn't a zero missing Flawless install on Windows 10 22H2, playing Full Screen mode with mouse bound to screen so it doesn't wander off onto second monitor.

Graphically it looks very good, I always liked 5's art style. I'll add some screenies in a later post.

First fling​

I did a bit of reading, and Wide does seem to be playable, perhaps at one Difficulty notch lower than Tall.

I picked a large Continents map and reduced player number from 10 to 6 and City States from 20 to 12 so there should be plenty of space for all—can't get Wide if space is cramped. I picked Warlords diff which is classed as Easy to learn the ropes again—but after 100 turns I'm double the next civ's score so I'll prob reroll soonish at Prince.

Barbarians

One of 6's best improvements is its Barbs, which are much more of a nuisance than Raging Barbs in 4. While 5's aren't as much of a threat, they're still spawning plentifully in the fog so that you can't just send Settlers off on their own—I got one captured trying to be smart

Main lack compared to 6's Barbs is they don't attack much, and not in numbers. Well so far anyway—they have been more adventurous with naval sorties against local coastal City States. I might look for a map type which will leave one landmass uncivilized until midgame so Barbs have a chance to develop some muscle.

Problems and Solutions

The big problem for Wide is Happiness—ie lack of same. It's a global number, and each City adds unhappiness. Answer seems to be accumulating Faith and Culture to enable Happy-making buildings, so I'm pursuing those. Of course, harvesting and trading for Luxury resources is also essential, just like for a Tall build.

Other main problem is that a lot of costs go up as your number of Cities increase. The solution is to get them productive so their advantage outweighs this—I'm not clear yet where the tipping point is, may be around City population 6… or could be 10. So each new City is a drag for quite a while.

I've run into a Gold deficit of ~minus 10/turn—disgusted to learn that Roads cost 1 Gold per turn, I think for each tile! Trade routes better make up for that, or everyone will have to whack thru the bushes from now on. A Great Merchant netted me 400 Gold with a City State, which is keeping me solvent for now.

Best Wide Civs

Shoshone
I picked Shoshone because of their initial landgrab attribute—they get 8 extra tiles available when you found a City, which is a pretty big bonus early on. They also have an early Pathfinder UU …Unique Unit… replacing Scout, who can choose which bonus to get from the Goody Hut aka Ruins. Free Great prophet or Tech or Culture or Gold or Upgrade—it's worth building 2 of these guys to send out and try to grab lots of Ruins. I made the mistake of choosing the Unit Upgrade freebie at a Ruin near a Barb camp—and promptly lost its magic ability… leave 'em as Pathfinders until finished scouting for Ruins, take Upgrade to Composite Bowman as last choice so you have a good Barb fighter going forward.

I'll prob try Carthage and Polynesia on water maps, and maybe India on a large map—apparently their Cities unhappiness reduces after they reach [or exceed?] 6 population… ie slow to start, but build up steam. I've seen 10-12 other Civs mentioned if the game holds my interest.

Conclusion

I'm enjoying it so far, now I must have a peek at some mods, especially for the UI.

 

[Zloth]

I understood all that, which worries me a little.

Was there a Civilization game where, if the barbarians were left alone for a long time, they would start their own civilization? I've got a vague memory of that, but it could have been some other 4X game.

You'll need more luxuries, but you'll be bigger so you should have access to more luxuries. I'm sure it will all work out!

 

[Brian Boru]

Was there a Civilization game where, if the barbarians were left alone for a long time, they would start their own civilization?

There is the 'Barbarian Clans' mode in Civ6 where Barbs can evolve into a City State if not wiped out first—but that's probably not the one you mean.

Civ 4 has a Barb Civ—with Sid Meier as their leader head —it probably came in one of the expansions or patches. If left alone they spawn their own cities. A good way to see how they develop is to play Terra map so you don't meet the America's Barbs until mid game—they should have a few cities ready to be conquered… altho on CivFanatics I have seen another's screenie of Barb Riflemen on a remote island, so not necessarily a pushover.

 

[Brian Boru]

I'm sure it will all work out!

Tell that to my brave Warrior…quickly named Custer

This is a later new game where I upped the diff to Prince. If it's not a fluke, these Raging Barbs are going to be a 'thing' on less-populated maps—Large Continents, with Civs reduced from 10 to 5 and CS from 20 to 10.

 

[Zloth]

Hmmm, can barbarians swim in this game? I guess you should try and find out - it's you're only hope!

 

[Brian Boru]

can barbarians swim

Good Q, I'll keep an eye out. No help to me tho, as I couldn't either Those are all Warriors in the pic, it's early days, well before Optics which is the Embarkation—aka swimming—tech.

On the upside, I had a Scout elsewhere make it back home with 1 HP—Health Points go from 1 to 100—so swings and roundabouts.

I met Monty:

Hasn't changed, I see

 

[Brian Boru]

Enhanced User Interface Mod Pack​

This seems to be the equivalent of the BUG/BAT/BULL mod for Civ4's UI—many great QoL improvements as far as I can see, so I've installed it.

Doesn't affect gameplay, and doesn't give you info you couldn't find out via more tedious routes. It needs game version 1.0.3.144 or newer, and works with Vanilla, the 2 main expansions and most other mods. Doesn't affect saved games.

Of course, I advise making a disc image beforehand just in case—guide in my sig—so you can get back to before situation quickly if anything messes up.

Game Version

Side note—took me a while to track down what game version I have, to make sure the EUI mod would work… even if I was 'sure' I must have the latest. Version number is well hidden, small text under the very first Main Menu screen—a long way under, missed it first time.

 

[Brian Boru]

Really Advanced Setup Mod​

This looks like a great mod for deep customization of the game. I subscribed and will check it out at some point. One think I see:

That might be the simple answer to the Happy cap if it means what I hope

There are also map and resource options in it which look like they can change the map setup to your liking. Somewhat similar to the other mod I use with Civ 4, the Full of Resources map mod.

 

[Brian Boru]

Units cost Maintenance​

In a fit of blind assumption, I somehow concluded that units were free—probably in denial after discovering every road tile costs per turn Sadly, not true. The good news for knowing what's going on is that:
♣ Depends on the turn number—costs rise throughout the game
♦ Depends on number of units—next unit costs more than last
♥ The formula is like a third degree polynomial for both factors

Don't worry if that's not crystal—I have Math in my degree and have no clue what the last bit means either—it's been a while Probably varies by diff level, map size etc—what is clear is that it can be simply summarized as 'You're screwed'.

Current game as Maya, I ran into Gold problems with 3 cities and 5 units—2 Workers, a Trireme, A Warrior and one of Maya's cheap Archers. It's taken over 100 turns to probably be out of cash trouble—only various lump sums kept me solvent. This all on Prince diff!

these Raging Barbs are going to be a 'thing' on less-populated maps

Oh boy, are they a 'thing'! I quickly discovered I need to adopt the Honor civic to get a buff in Barb combat, given I could only field 2 land units without going broke. No problem winning each encounter, or escaping to heal when double-teamed—but they just kept coming! Approach the Barb camp and they'd spawn a unit per turn to quickly force my withdrawal. If cities didn't have built-in ranged defense, They'd have got me.

 

[Brian Boru]

Greatest Mod Ever​

Ooh, I found the bestest modest everest!

City Border UI​

Pint of milk in a silver goblet to whoever can quickly discern the city's current workable tiles

I'll definitely be looking for some mod improvement to that artistic endeavor.

City Ranged Attack

Here's that city defensive ability I mentioned earlier.

 

[Pifanjr]

Units cost Maintenance​

In a fit of blind assumption, I somehow concluded that units were free—probably in denial after discovering every road tile costs per turn

There is a policy that makes units free if they're garrisoned in a city. It's in the Tradition tree, which claims it's best for small empires, but that specific policy is very useful for large empires as well, especially with raging barbs.

Also, roads (usually) earn themselves back if you use them to connect cities. Every pop in the city adds (about) 1 gold per turn if connected to your capital.

City Border UI​

Pint of milk in a silver goblet to whoever can quickly discern the city's current workable tiles

I don't remember the city UI to be that colourful. Is that vanilla or is it a mod?

Regardless, it doesn't seem that hard to see the icons indicating where you can assign your pops.

 

[Brian Boru]

doesn't seem that hard to see the icons indicating where you can assign your pops

Ack, I posted the wrong pic—above is from City Screen, where the little circles show the available tiles. I meant to post from normal map view, eg for when you're picking where to send a Worker—it looks like this, and should be with the EUI mod:

policy that makes units free if they're garrisoned in a city. It's in the Tradition tree

Huh, you're right, thanks I skipped over it since 'everyone' says 'Start with Liberty tree'.

It's immediately available too—ie first in tree—and leads directly to Legalism with its free Culture building for 4 cities. That seems like 2 pretty decent civics for early on. Plus the initial Culture buffs for picking Trad look very decent too.

So maybe:
♣ adopt Tradition to get Culture and city borders going
♦ adopt Honor for buff fighting Barbs
♥ then the first 2 Trad civics
♠ then Liberty to the cheap Settlers

I guess the main draw of the Liberty tree is the 50% off Settler cost on its 2nd tier, and Worker buff on 1st tier—which are of limited use early on with Barbs raging around.

roads (usually) earn themselves back if you use them to connect cities. Every pop in the city adds (about) 1 gold per turn if connected to your capital

Thanks again! I seem to be at the Barbs tamed stage now—Gold surplus with these units in play:

So I can afford to take a temp Gold hit to get the roads going, and def it's time for a 4th City.

 

[Brian Boru]

Naval-friendly Map​

This is the full map I have so far, my Pikeman is exploring west along the south coast. I almost definitely have this landmass to myself, Turn 150 without meeting anyone.

In contrast with land routes, 2 Triremes are holding the sporadic Barb navy efforts at bay , and I have a nice Cargo Ship trade route going. Since my 3 cities so far and the 2 City States are all coastal, a couple more Triremes should be able to secure all the Trade routes I can have.

 

[Brian Boru]

I almost definitely have this landmass to myself, Turn 150 without meeting anyone

Or not… turn ~175:

I don't know where Queen Boudica came from, but it's probably not overseas. Got a Happy trade from her—her Dyes for my Truffles—but when I offered Sugar for her Spices, she wanted an arm and a leg thrown in

City Connections​

When you said…

roads (usually) earn themselves back if you use them to connect cities

…I assumed that was via some trade route benefit.

But in happy news, no, the connection thing seems to be a separate benefit:

If I read that correctly, the connection costs me 11 and gets me 17.2—nice!

 

[Pifanjr]

Got a Happy trade from her—her Dyes for my Truffles—but when I offered Sugar for her Spices, she wanted an arm and a leg thrown in

Was it her last Spices? Because that's usually when they want a ton of stuff for it (which makes sense, if they lose 4 happiness from giving it away).

 

[Brian Boru]

Was it her last Spices?

Hey now, please don't interrupt me when I'm in AH—Assumption Heaven—thinking only her excess stuff would show up in the trade screen.

Tbh I didn't look too closely, this is still very much a skim-and-flavor playthru But you're very likely right, that would make sense.

 

[Zloth]

ROFL at "disable happiness" - I mean, is there a crueler option in any game?

Also, one planet with Brian Boru and Queen Boudica at the same time? <shudder>

 

[Brian Boru]

Who's Happy Now?​

ROFL at "disable happiness" - I mean, is there a crueler option in any game?

I started a new game and switched this sweet and caring option on:

And yep, it works—there is no Happy factor in the game:

I had got to 6 cities around Turn 200 in my previous Mayan game, but the Happy was a real PITA—go negative and there's a 75% penalty to growth and production, and soon after units will start being deleted. That's too big a penalty in my book, especially when you can be caught by surprise unless you've made a job of it—eg keep notes, set up alarms—when say a trade deal expires or you lose access to a Luxury resource.

Anyway, this mod option may be the key to a low-stress Wide game—we'll see.

Byzantium fun with Dromon boat​

I started this game with the elegant Theodora…

…because she has a hot boat, the Dromon which replaces the Trireme. This has a ranged attack with Greek Fire—think napalm from a cannon—which can also target land units near the coast. AND 50% bonus v naval units—this thing can rule the coast for ~100 turns.

Above is a Dromon targeting a Barb camp. It can also hit land units one tile inland by hugging the coast. The ideal is to sink a bunch of Barb Galleys and Triremes and take the 2 Promotions which buff land attack by 33% each—then there's no worry about Archers returning fire, you can kill 'em in one shot first!

Elevation matters​

In the turn before this image, both my Archers were in the tiles directly SW of where they are now—with the green circles, both flat land tiles. The Barb Archer on a Hill could range attack both of them, but neither could attack him. In the pic, both can attack the Barb—guy on right is now on a Hill.

 

[Pifanjr]

Elevation matters​

In the turn before this image, both my Archers were in the tiles directly SW of where they are now—with the green circles, both flat land tiles. The Barb Archer on a Hill could range attack both of them, but neither could attack him. In the pic, both can attack the Barb—guy on right is now on a Hill.

I don't think the hill matters for the archer on the right because the hex with the horses doesn't have a forest, jungle or a hill to block ranged attacks. Standing on a hill allows a ranged unit to shoot over flat forests, flat jungles and plain hills (so not hills with a forest or jungle).

 

[Hveðrungr]

At some point in any Civ V campaign I would switch from the pretty graphics mode to the icons mode so I could see my empire more efficiently. Anyone else do the same?

 

[Pifanjr]

At some point in any Civ V campaign I would switch from the pretty graphics mode to the icons mode so I could see my empire more efficiently. Anyone else do the same?

I turn off attack and move animations nowadays, but I do want to see my little guys be little guys and not just icons.

 

[Brian Boru]

I don't think the hill matters for the archer on the right

That makes sense, and gels with my imperfect recollection of other Archer fights. So a Hill matters to the attacker when there's a single impediment on both in-between tiles.

switch from the pretty graphics mode to the icons mode

I do that all the time, the normal view can be quite cluttered at times. I play mostly in normal view, and Strategy Mode is only a click away any time I need it to quickly check resources, locations etc—I like that its default view is the whole revealed map, no need to zoom.

I turn off attack and move animations nowadays

I use Quick Combat always in Civ 4, or a Stack of Doom encounter could take 5 minutes! But not in Civ 5—it's a guilty pleasure watching each of the Dromon's volleys crisp a Barb defender, or my Archer squad sending a flight of arrows

I do want to see my little guys be little guys

Same. In Civ 4 I preferred single unit view—eg Warrior showed as one guy rather than the default squad of 3—but I prefer the squad view in Civ 5. Apart from aesthetic appeal, it also provides a good approx of the health on the unit—if 6 of the 8 in the squad have dropped, time to retreat!

 

[Brian Boru]

can barbarians swim in this game?

Yep—forgot to take a screenie, they didn't survive my Dromon. But I give them some credit, they were outgunned [outspeared, outsworded?] by my confronting land units—neither of which was an Archer, ie can't target water units—so they took a dip to try and get away. E for Effort!

Was it her last Spices? Because that's usually when they want a ton of stuff

Hmm, rethink… Recent negotiation with Attila—first did a normal 1-for-1 Luxury trade, then I offered my Pearls—didn't clutch 'em—for his Ivory… got this:

Maybe they don't like more than one trade at a time 🤷‍♂️

I'm bumping into members of the Cuddly Group of civs—first Monty above, now Attila.

 

[Pifanjr]

Yep—forgot to take a screenie, they didn't survive my Dromon. But I give them some credit, they were outgunned [outspeared, outsworded?] by my confronting land units—neither of which was an Archer, ie can't target water units—so they took a dip to try and get away. E for Effort!



Hmm, rethink… Recent negotiation with Attila—first did a normal 1-for-1 Luxury trade, then I offered my Pearls—didn't clutch 'em—for his Ivory… got this:

Maybe they don't like more than one trade at a time 🤷‍♂️

I'm bumping into members of the Cuddly Group of civs—first Monty above, now Attila.

I guess Attila just doesn't like you very much.

 

[Brian Boru]

Woohoo, another Cuddly stalwart!

Is it me, or is he remarkably fresh-faced for a marauding life on the steppes?

Proved that the world is round​

I didn't know if this was a thing in Civ 5 so I sent my noble explorers west and east. Got a popup message "proved that the world is round"—but nothing re benefit. Search reveals there isn't any benefit
In Civ 4 you got +1 to all navy travel ranges, which was decent.

Navy Promotions Supply and Range​

These are great!

Supply

This is the biggie, it lets your boats heal outside of friendly territory—I was getting cheesed off until it showed up, needing to bring ships back a long way home if they got badly dented.

You need a double promotion on one of the normal starting ones—eg Bombardment 1 & 2, Targeting 1 & 2, etc. Then it becomes available next promo.

Range

Nice one for your ranged ships—Byzantium's Dromon or everyone's Galleass—it adds one to make their ranged attack 3 tiles instead of the usual 2. Main benefit is attacking Archer types near the coast, since they can shoot back to sea—but only 2 tiles.

So far I haven't seen an ability to move after attack for boats, which would solve the retaliation problem—but Horses have such, so maybe later for boats.