I figured someone with the name "Ipman" would know all about Eastern philosophy. 😀
I have a friend on another forum with Wu Wei in his username. I know what it is now, but I had never heard of it before him.
No, I sure don't remember that.
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I have a friend on another forum with Wu Wei in his username. I know what it is now, but I had never heard of it before him.
Pleasant news, it seems we have a release date for Skyblivion in 2025. Not cut in stone the exact date, but the developers seem confident about the year according to Matty. They still need volunteers so I am thinking about joining the miscellaneous section to see if this aging fart can be of assistance.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIUaC-Zr6CQ
That's awesome. That will probably be my best chance of giving Oblivion a shot. I wish Skywind could be completed in that time. That's the one I'd really like to play.
@WoodenSaucer I hope so too. It looks like there might be coming a new video update soon, so perhaps they will give some news in that regard: View: https://www.reddit.com/r/skywind/comments/zz0ntb/dev_diary_or_some_kind_of_showcase/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
We have some fun on here don't we🙂
I don't think fully automated business systems are far off. I'm sure you've seen those auto trucks being tested in convoy, the Tesla factory, delivery robots, delivery drones, etc. Business owners have been replacing humans for centuries, maybe going back to the power looom.
In many ways humans have been used as biological robots, repeating boring tasks all day, which is a sacrilege.
We have 1.5-2 litre brains(Poincare the polymath had a 0.5 litre brain), so just imagine if the Earth's population was fully educated and combined it's collective mind power. The web allows us all to connect and share our ideas, the potential is phenomenal. (Oh and thank you to Tim Berners-Lee, who didn't patent that idea).
Just on deliveries, have you seen the lengths some people have gone to, firstly to try and get their deliveries, and speak to a real person. Faking job applications so they could go to the warehouse in person.
One woman last week photoshopped her house on fire, claimed the delivery driver had caused it, then a human responded!
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It's definitely been an interest and an influence. I like that Buddhists don't believe in fictional supernatural beings, and focus on personal growth and enlightenment. I also find Japanese culture fascinating and the Zen idea of encouraging randomness and incorporating accidents into the art process.
But ipman is a play between IP address and that unlike the Wing Chun master, I know nothing of the martial arts other than like Bradley Cooper's character in Limitless, what I've picked up from watching Kung Fu style films.🙂
mainer
Venatus semper
That is great news, to see that the TES Renewal Project ( TESR: The Elder Scrolls Renewal (tesrenewal.com) ) has enough confidence to release a tentative release year for Skyblivion. I'm really looking forward to playing both of these games.
The thing that still amazes me is that both these projects started development in 2012, and they're still in production. Eleven years these guys have been working on their own time, without any funding, to complete these projects. If they started when they were around 20 years old (just an example), they'd now be around 31 years old now. How many life changes do we go through in that time period? From college days, to working for a living, to marriage, to having kids, and all the other things that can happen in those eleven years. Unfathomable dedication.
If I were in charge of Bethesda, I'd help fund these projects so that they could be completed as well as support those dedicated individuals. It would also be good PR for Bethesda as you have to own/install the originals (and I think all expansions) to be able to play Skyblivion & Skywind. It also keeps the ES series in the public eye. Alternatively, I'd take the approach that Valve took with Black Mesa from Crowbar Interactive and allow them to actually charge something for these reconstruction projects. I'd gladly pay for either of them, though probably not everyone feels that way, but I feel they deserve some form of monetary compensation for the years of dedication.
I'll have to disagree with you on menial labor like that being a sacrilege, for a couple of reasons. First off, not everyone in this world has the same mental capacity. Maybe it's just that you're not around a wide spectrum of people, but there are a lot of people in this world that are just not capable of using their brains in the same ways as others. I used to believe that everyone has mental potential, but I've found over the years that that's just not true. Does that make them any less of a person? No, it does not. Those people are just gifted in other areas of their lives.
Secondly, for those people who aren't capable of jobs that use their brains, and even more people who just don't find passion in a career, and they want to focus their energy on other parts of their lives, those boring, repetitive jobs can provide a very good income, usually with good benefits. Will it make them rich? Probably not. But some people prioritize other aspects of life over wealth. And blue collar work provides a good income for a lot of people to be able to live and enjoy their lives. Give that to a machine, and what happens to all the people who legitimately aren't capable of more?
I have a job now where I have to use my brain and my heart every day. I'm doing what I went to college for. But for 11 years, I worked in a factory, so I know firsthand the good of having work like that for people.
I also want to throw out there that I believe there are people who are gifted for menial labor, and even have a passion for it. My mother-in-law was definitely not the top of her class, but she is one of the warmest people you'll ever meet. And she loves cleaning. That's what she does for work, and she's passionate about it. She's good at it, and she puts her heart into it. I'm thankful for people like that, because I'm sure not passionate about cleaning. Haha.
I'm just wondering if we as humans are in a transition period. And it does seem that machines and robots can perform many menial tasks as well as complex tasks. Some robots are being used for complex, precise surgery.
Some jobs can be done better by a robot, they don't have bad days, or text while driving, etc
I have done menial work myself. I worked in a brewery just moving barrels around all day + many other menial jobs as well. At that time I quite enjoyed it, I could switch my mind to other things and just do the job almost habitually. I also enjoyed the physical nature of the work, why go to a gym, barrels of beer are heavy!
I think it's inevitable that machines and robots will replace humans in most forms of work. It make sense to manufacturers, labour is a major cost. So that is driving that transition. Robots work 24/7, don't strike, etc.
I think once that transition period is over, then people will have more time to get better educations, develop and persue their leisure. My parents were anti-education, but I think that is something which the elites promote, because if people think for themselves and are educated, they may start to question all sorts of constructs.
I always wanted to do a degree, but had no support early on. But I did get there. I just believe humans with their large brains and curious minds are capable of so much more.
It's like that well known story of the Indian slum children who were given access to a PC, learnt how to use it and started educating themselves. Also better and more imaginitive educators like Sugata Mitra who was part of that project.
We also need to transition to a much better education system, although I think the education system just gives us the mental tools and the best education is the one we give ourselves.
But it's an intereesting and open debate.
Just a link to The Hole in the Wall Project>
https://www.edutopia.org/blog/self-organized-learning-sugata-mitra
Yes I agree that is one construct that needs critiquing, although it may be possible for different systems to co exist. Obviously as we as humans transition to a new model, there would have to be some sort of universal basic income.
But part of that transition may be a critique of everything that has gone before. A complete restructuring of human society so everyone is treated as an equal, is valued equally and has equal opportunity.
It's long been a Utopian dream and it is happening to some degree in some societies.
I often see gamers as radicals and many games reflect that.
But I bet people weren't expecting us to get deep today.
@ipman One of my favorite Japanese expressions is Wabi-Sabi. I interpret it as a way to find beauty in something that has flaws because those flaws are parts of the person or object and therefore give it both a personality and history. I think of this at times when I buy art by asking if the curator has damaged art that has been taken down from displays or never got there in the first place. If I like the art, then I give something back to the artist, the gallery, and myself by having new art to enjoy.
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I'm having to trawl my memory, but I think at a time when the West was moving to mass production and say turning out masses of say pottery that was all the same. Japanese artists kept a tradition that meant each vase say, was unique.
Made by an individual, a unique piece of art.
Speaking of work/labor. I do think people are less good at learning different professions (could not find a better word for it). If we look back at the time before the agricultural revolution people would often be experts in a lot of things: How to hunt, how to make a bow, how to know what to eat or not, how to track, how to make different clothes and how to mix different materials, etc. They had to because if they didn't they would quickly perish either by the climate, animals, or other groups of sapiens. Kind of makes you think about their intelligence also, because they had to quickly adapt if they were going to survive.
I believe we all got a bit lazy after the 1st Agricultural Revolution since it brought with it less need for individual expertise and more focus on collective produce like farms, gardens, etc. Less and less need for a person to really know a lot of things in that sense and I don't think that has gotten any better over the centuries. As we slowly get more used to having AI around, I can see the one potential problem of humans becoming more and more dependent on AI to do even the easiest of work. Who knows maybe we'll slowly evolve into different types of human beings; those with enhancements (More IQ, stronger body parts, longer life) and those who can't afford more than the cheaper ones and suddenly we are back to square one for surviving.
Either that could happen or more in the sense of what @ipman mentioned that it could be a transition period, which makes me think a little about Star Trek The Next Generation and how people have conquered hunger and have no need for money etc, and really only need to focus on discovery or just becoming the best man or woman they can be. In that sense, the sky is the limit to how much humans can advance in the positive direction and it is the direction I do believe we are heading in.
I believe we all got a bit lazy after the 1st Agricultural Revolution since it brought with it less need for individual expertise and more focus on collective produce like farms, gardens, etc. Less and less need for a person to really know a lot of things in that sense and I don't think that has gotten any better over the centuries. As we slowly get more used to having AI around, I can see the one potential problem of humans becoming more and more dependent on AI to do even the easiest of work. Who knows maybe we'll slowly evolve into different types of human beings; those with enhancements (More IQ, stronger body parts, longer life) and those who can't afford more than the cheaper ones and suddenly we are back to square one for surviving.
Either that could happen or more in the sense of what @ipman mentioned that it could be a transition period, which makes me think a little about Star Trek The Next Generation and how people have conquered hunger and have no need for money etc, and really only need to focus on discovery or just becoming the best man or woman they can be. In that sense, the sky is the limit to how much humans can advance in the positive direction and it is the direction I do believe we are heading in.
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Kaamos_Llama
Moderator
Let's hope for that one eh?
Zed Clampet
Community Contributor
Capitalism breaks down when our AI overlords start sweeping the McDonald's floors.
***********
Speaking of Eastern Philosophy (someone did at some point, I swear), I was riding through the parking lot of a Buddhist Temple the other day (the one below)
to turn around, when the sound of one hand clapping came to me. I demanded that my wife pull into a parking space so I could find the abbot and pass on this new information so important to their belief system, but she ignored me completely (it took her almost 30 years to figure this out) and turned around to head back to the restaurant she had accidentally passed. By the time dinner was over, this ephemeral revelation had left me. So the next time someone asks you about a hand clapping, remember we had the answer, but my wife was hungry for BBQ.
*******
Also, Guido won the regional Tech Bowl.
I wonder if anyone who watched Star Trek and some sci fi films were given possible visions of utopian societies that still inform them. Dystopian ones were supposed to be a warning.
I also think it's quite difficult for Westerners to grasp Japanese concepts. Because of it's long time isolation, deliberate seperation and adherance to traditions it does appear at times like a different planet , so I only grasp them in an oblique way.
I think humans have been 'intelligent' for many thousands of years. Cave paintings are very sophisticated, and again that's why our collective culture is so important, it's a record of how we lived at a particular time and often the only thing that survives(except for a few flint arrows in that case).
I suppose pre agriculture revolution most people had to be a master of many trades, whereas now we tend to specialise and really develop individually in specific areas. Which is also important and leads to rapid advancement in those areas.
I'm actually positive about AI, it can take over many functions that it's good at and free humans up to focus on new or specific areas. I think if humans are going to explore the cosmos then it will be invaluable. Look at modern fighter jets, fly by wire, but for space craft.
I'm not to optimistic that humans won't over populate, and consume Earth's resources or destroy it in other ways. Also as gamers say after they've been beaten by an AI system, no human would have made that move, or chosen that strategy, so it becomes a mutual learning process.
I do find evolution fascinating and have read Darwin's original and some newer concepts.
But like you say, we can't let the few create a new technocracy, somehow all humans need to work together to create better future collectives. There's no reason a few should have massive wealth they can't really spend, while 99% struggle.
Everyone should have; housing, enough food, enough energy, good healthcare and good quality education.
I'm such a utopian dreamer🙂
Zed Clampet
Community Contributor
We're going to move into a new era of existential dread and depression as the world manages to move along without us. Even if we realize a utopian human culture that allows us endless time for personal pursuits, the fact that we aren't necessary to anything will drag many down.
But the truth is there will be a century of deep poverty for most. We aren't moving into Utopian Acres Retirement Home without a fight over money and power first. An actual cyberpunk-like era wouldn't surprise me at all.
I'm very wary of AI and how it will impact the world in the future. I've seen AI evolution on small scales and it does not make me comfortable with giving it any amount of power over us.
As for robots in general, I'm curious about whether we'll run out of the necessary resources before we even get close to making cost-efficient robots to replace humans. Though that isn't just true for robots, we seem to be running out of a lot of resources and messing up the planet quicker than we're coming up with solutions. Or rather, implementing any solutions we do come up with. It seems pretty much inevitable that I'll see some major global disasters in my lifetime.
Congratulations!
As for robots in general, I'm curious about whether we'll run out of the necessary resources before we even get close to making cost-efficient robots to replace humans. Though that isn't just true for robots, we seem to be running out of a lot of resources and messing up the planet quicker than we're coming up with solutions. Or rather, implementing any solutions we do come up with. It seems pretty much inevitable that I'll see some major global disasters in my lifetime.
Congratulations!
It's strange in this country because we have a few elites, who enslaved workers here and then decided to inflict that on parts of the world's population. But after WW1 they were obliged to give men the vote because it was the workers who saved their lands, factories and mansions, but because so many men had died they wouldn't give the vote to women until the numbers were about equal again.
Then after WW2 they were obliged to offer basic housing to everyone and basic healthcare(paid by different taxes) to everyone for similar reasons. So it was a sort of obliged 'socialism' while retaining the same hierachical structure.
So now of course Britain is no longer technologically advanced and it is basically a service industry. Large manufacturing bases like Birmingham, in a similar way to places like Detroit were descimated. So there is a basic universal income as well.
It still clings to some socialist ideals. So the governement have been paying many people's energy bills over the winter, we still get free healthcare but that is creaking. And they do force companies to offer some basic services at lower prices to lower income people, like low cost broadband.
So for a brief time of a few decades it was superficially, utopian. I also like Holland which was similar and laid back.
The main problem as Bill Burr jokes, is too many people. And as always a few greedy people who want everything.
I think many people are anxious about the future because that utopia now does seem to be a fading dream.
Guys, great discussion, keep on rollin' 🙂
But please keep the political side of things general, posts which zero in on countries or individuals will be hidden.
But please keep the political side of things general, posts which zero in on countries or individuals will be hidden.
Zed Clampet
Community Contributor
Not to bring up my love for healthcare again, but AI and robot-controlled AI will have a tremendous positive impact on healthcare in a lot of different ways. Fewer mistakes, more precise surgery, better diagnosis, cheaper all around.
As well as those you mention, maybe the biggest will be the dev process for new drugs—there are very promising advances in that area at the moment, which should decimate the time and cost for new pharma.
Also, the evolution of individual custom medical treatment will be huge. Today it's like everyone has to wear the same tee shirts, tomorrow you'll be able to have your preferred fabric, size, color 🙂
There are a lot of questions that arise, though. If machines run everything, then why do we even need to get a better education? Right now, there are 7.8 billion people in the world. By the time this transition is over, there will be more. If machines take over all of the jobs, then how will all of those people earn a living? How will things be paid for? If you're just going to dole out money to everyone without them having to do anything for it, who is going to be in charge of doling the money out? I know I sure don't trust the government to do that. And that brings up another thought, why would anyone want to work for the government when everyone else gets a paycheck for doing nothing? Why would anyone be motivated to run the government? And if there were people who were motivated to do that, it could only be for power. Would you trust people who are only doing it for the power to run your entire life, and to run the entire economy?
Or maybe the government is run by AI, too. People might think a computer would be more impartial. But the only way a computer could run a government would be if its AI is so advanced that it could have highly intelligent thought processes and make choices and decisions. An AI that advanced would have to be self-aware. Would that kind of AI look at humans as being vastly inferior? If so, what kind of bigoted decisions might it make when directing how our "Utopian" lives might be run? If things actually go that way, it will not turn out to be good for humans.
Plus, even if it did, you should watch the movie WALL-E, if you haven't seen it. Humans would end up becoming weak, obese people, who can't even stand up without falling over, and if anything ever happened to all of that tech, we wouldn't be able to survive on our own.
Zed Clampet
Community Contributor
Because 1) We need to keep innovating and 2) We don't like being stupid
It will be the government, and they don't care that you don't like them.
This is already the way it is, so nothing will change there. But the other thing is money. They will obviously be paid a lot more than the people who aren't working.
The AI will do what we tell it to or we will reprogram it or turn it off.
I don't really consider WALL-E to be predictive of the future. You make it sound like people aren't going to be doing anything, and that's nonsense. Humans are driven to progress, are driven to work. It's locked in our genetic code. The entire population is not going to sit around eating frozen food all day and watching television. Most people will still have jobs. But there will also be a lot of people who can't adapt to the lack of low-end jobs. Those people will need to be taken care of.
As far as people becoming fat and not being able to walk, that will be the same small sector of humanity that's already doing that. We're not banishing exercise or common sense or healthy eating.
