Kaamos_Llama
Moderator
When someone says playthrough I assume they finish the game and see credits. Forgot who I was talking too
When someone says playthrough I assume they finish the game and see credits. Forgot who I was talking too
There are many players who aren't masochists. I understand that's maybe a revelation for RPG players, but it's true
Apart from Point‘n‘Click adventures and puzzle games, I haven‘t played any games which had a ‚bad‘ tutorial. They are mostly longplay and openworld games like Horizon Zero Dawn, No Man‘s Sky or Hogwarts Legacy.
So, instead of one long tutorial, you have little quests combined with little tutvids that pop-in when you get confronted with a new action or material. I really like this kind of tutorial, except for the point that if you happen to accidentally click the wrong button when the vid just pops in, you miss the whole tutorial section.
I think Horizon Zero Dawn did very well that they also integrated the tutvids into the Player‘s journal/wiki/„Focus“ so you were able to rewatch them any time. Since I tend to make long breaks while playing longplay games, this is a really good feature for me.
In general, I like it to have something like a personal wiki that collects items, facts and notes from the game while you play it.
Now, coming to the P‘n‘Cs and puzzles. Since most of the P‘n’Cs actually have just the basic commands… namely Point and Click… I am surprised how many games don‘t manage to give a bearable tutorial. The only good (and funny) tutorial in the P‘n‘C section that comes to my mind is The Book of Unwritten Tales 2 (the first one wasn‘t bad either but not skippable as it formed the beginning of the story).
My criterias for a good P‘n‘C tutorial:
1. Can you skip it? For me, who has already played dozens of P‘n‘Cs and who likes to replay them if they have a catchy story, the most annoying part is an unskippable tutorial.
2. Is it working? Yes, I‘ve experienced it more than once that tutorials didn‘t even work. Sometimes, the click areas where you were supposed to click were just too small to find or even blocked by decorational elements. My worst tutorial experience was in Lost Horizon 2 where they found it funny to introduce a new wasd-control for an escape part. (Little side note: In the end, it was the only part in the whole game to use this kind of controls…) If you used the keys as the tutorial told you, you failed, died and it restared the whole cutscene. Every. Single. Time. I actually had to google my way out of it, just to be able to continue with the game.
3. (Bonus) Is it creative/funny/entertaining? Well, I think this point is self-explaining. A tutorial which makes fun and invites you to keep playing is one of the best, imo.
So, instead of one long tutorial, you have little quests combined with little tutvids that pop-in when you get confronted with a new action or material. I really like this kind of tutorial, except for the point that if you happen to accidentally click the wrong button when the vid just pops in, you miss the whole tutorial section.
I think Horizon Zero Dawn did very well that they also integrated the tutvids into the Player‘s journal/wiki/„Focus“ so you were able to rewatch them any time. Since I tend to make long breaks while playing longplay games, this is a really good feature for me.
In general, I like it to have something like a personal wiki that collects items, facts and notes from the game while you play it.
Now, coming to the P‘n‘Cs and puzzles. Since most of the P‘n’Cs actually have just the basic commands… namely Point and Click
… I am surprised how many games don‘t manage to give a bearable tutorial. The only good (and funny) tutorial in the P‘n‘C section that comes to my mind is The Book of Unwritten Tales 2 (the first one wasn‘t bad either but not skippable as it formed the beginning of the story).My criterias for a good P‘n‘C tutorial:
1. Can you skip it? For me, who has already played dozens of P‘n‘Cs and who likes to replay them if they have a catchy story, the most annoying part is an unskippable tutorial.
2. Is it working? Yes, I‘ve experienced it more than once that tutorials didn‘t even work. Sometimes, the click areas where you were supposed to click were just too small to find or even blocked by decorational elements. My worst tutorial experience was in Lost Horizon 2 where they found it funny to introduce a new wasd-control for an escape part. (Little side note: In the end, it was the only part in the whole game to use this kind of controls…) If you used the keys as the tutorial told you, you failed, died and it restared the whole cutscene. Every. Single. Time. I actually had to google my way out of it, just to be able to continue with the game.
3. (Bonus) Is it creative/funny/entertaining? Well, I think this point is self-explaining. A tutorial which makes fun and invites you to keep playing is one of the best, imo.
I use OneNote for that, and keep it open on 2nd monitor while learning the game. Also useful for comparison lists of weapons, powers etc. EverNote is the other big note-taking app which many prefer.
If that happens, look into changing your monitor resolution. It could be the devs designed the screen with a minimum size in mind, but you're playing on a smaller size which squashes the on-screen elements together or over each other.
I didn't really think about it before, and this kind of links to things several people have said, but Total War sometimes has two types of tutorials. One is either just a separate tutorial or prologue, and the other happens during the game in the form of the advisor who pops up when you get to something important. You don't have to necessarily use either tutorial. You can skip the prologue and you can turn the advisor off or even just adjust the amount of information he gives.
As far as replay goes, Total War games, so far as I know, don't let you skip the beginning stages, but we generally use mods that do the same thing.
As far as replay goes, Total War games, so far as I know, don't let you skip the beginning stages, but we generally use mods that do the same thing.
Zloth
Community Contributor
"Tutvids"?? Like this? OK, probably not.
OH! Or maybe it's because people really LOVE tutorials? As soon as they finish one, it's off to the next game!
That actually really does surprise me, even though I see it all the time! 15 hours into a 60 hour game that will likely take me 100 hours and I get an un-missable achievement, which only 50% of players have managed to get, even after a year and a half!?There are many players who aren't masochists. I understand that's maybe a revelation for RPG players, but it's true
OH! Or maybe it's because people really LOVE tutorials? As soon as they finish one, it's off to the next game!
mainer
Venatus semper
I often use that term "playthrough" when I replay an older game (which I do more than play new games), but maybe i should switch to just saying "replay" as I don't always finish it to the credit scroll. I never really know when I start to replay a game, if it's going to be a complete playthrough or not, depends on the game, if it's modded, and probably other factors as well. I think I'm probably around 60-65% for complete replays, and 35-40% for partial replays, even as a primarily RPG player.There are many players who aren't masochists. I understand that's maybe a revelation for RPG players, but it's true
Kaamos_Llama
Moderator
I'm not even sure why @Brian Boru has me down as an RPG player
. I do like them a lot but I play a lot of other stuff as well. I'm also not a big replayer of games, so a bit of new game + is probably my only experience of a second go at most games with a story in recent memory.Thinking about it, what surprises me most is the idea that maybe some people play games and don't engage with the story missions at all. I don't even thinks that's possible in 90% of games.
Not saying there's anything wrong with it of course, just maybe that's why it didn't occur to me.
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I don't think I've actually ever done a New Game +, but that is a good point. However, even if (and as @Brian Boru mentioned, that is a big if) you've finished the game, you also still need access to the old save file in order to start the New Game + when you want to start a new playthrough. Though that's not as much of a problem with cloud saves nowadays.
I think the perfect solution is to let players choose which mission/chapter/level to start from, so they can choose exactly which parts to skip. Of course this doesn't work well if stuff you do in earlier levels influences later levels, but there's ways around that.
Honestly, I'd love it if all levels were unlocked from the very beginning, so you can choose to skip annoying levels without having to cheat your way through them or just skip tutorial missions if it's a genre you don't need a tutorial for.
I'd love to have the option to just read a manual and skip the tutorial though. I like reading manuals. It really depends on the game whether learning while doing actually works better than just reading about how the game works and jumping in.
Still winter there in Finland, huh? As soon as it warms up, do yourself a favor and get outside a bit…
I admit to skipping the story altogether in:
Chess
Match 3
Poker
Solitaire
Plants v Zombies
Space Invaders
Pong
Yawn…
Games are rarely an optimal story telling medium—perhaps walking sim or adventure or visual novel genres can pull it off… Syberia 1 & 2 were decent, and The Secret Files were passable. Those genres allow the dev to severely limit the player's actions, so a story ca mostly flow.
Want a story? Read a book, watch a TV show, go to the theater. Once you give the viewer agency, the story loses coherence, pacing, continuity, tension, etc.
Kaamos_Llama
Moderator
Still winter there in Finland, huh? As soon as it warms up, do yourself a favor and get outside a bit…
I admit to skipping the story altogether in:
Chess
Match 3
Poker
Solitaire
Plants v Zombies
Space Invaders
Pong
Yawn…
Games are rarely an optimal story telling medium—perhaps walking sim or adventure or visual novel genres can pull it off… Syberia 1 & 2 were decent, and The Secret Files were passable. Those genres allow the dev to severely limit the player's actions, so a story ca mostly flow.
Want a story? Read a book, watch a TV show, go to the theater. Once you give the viewer agency, the story loses coherence, pacing, continuity, tension, etc.
Easy tiger, I know you don't care for video game stories, might have something to do with you not liking sci fi and fantasy. I dont know, thats your thing.
The medium is a creative art form in which many people enjoy narrative. Sports, parlour games and casual games are not the same thing, even if they may have filled a similar spot for you over time. You cant compare a crossword puzzle or sudoku to a game of cricket or snowboarding. Similarly you cant compare Bejewelled or Angry Birds to Disco Elysium or a Dragon Age even if you play them both on a screen.
I don't and didn't mean to poke you, I really did think of new game plus earlier and genuinely wonder why that wouldn't work for you. I know you dont engage with story much in games, but didnt think that meant that you never actually do the missions to progress the game forwards.
Oops—sorry brother 💋
Now why would you want to miss a golden opportunity? I've played a fair bit of poker, so fire away
Agreed, me too in the genres I mentioned which are suited to it, and which we broadly agree is a factor, ie "You cant compare".
Fantasy, yeah not my thing—Anne McCaffrey is about the only one I liked. Scifi on the other hand is indeed my thing, and I love a good story there—Heinlein, Clarke, Asimov and many more.
You were right not to think that
Kaamos_Llama
Moderator
Oops—sorry brother 💋
Now why would you want to miss a golden opportunity? I've played a fair bit of poker, so fire away
Agreed, me too in the genres I mentioned which are suited to it, and which we broadly agree is a factor, ie "You cant compare".
Fantasy, yeah not my thing—Anne McCaffrey is about the only one I liked. Scifi on the other hand is indeed my thing, and I love a good story there—Heinlein, Clarke, Asimov and many more.
Its a talk we've had before that is subjective. Some enjoy game stories, some don't.
You were right not to think that
Struggle through a few more and enjoy the new game + then! Cloud saves will save you
This is not even remotely true. The Witcher 3 has some of the best stories you can find anywhere. Games like Hogwarts Legacy are narrative driven and have great stories all throughout, or at least as far as I've gotten so far. You are mostly a casual game player with zero patience for story. Don't knock it for the rest of us, though. There are many great games with many great stories. Obsidian tells great stories in their games. Bioware used to.
To get back to the topic of the thread:
I've been trying to think of a game that has a great tutorial, but I can't think of any. But I suppose that a great tutorial often doesn't feel like a tutorial, but just as part of the game itself.
I've been trying to think of a game that has a great tutorial, but I can't think of any. But I suppose that a great tutorial often doesn't feel like a tutorial, but just as part of the game itself.
mainer
Venatus semper
Veering off topic again, sorry guys.
Bethesda open world Elder Scrolls & Fallout games come to mind when it comes to playing for hundreds of hours and barely touching the main questlines. I've had several
Completely agree with this, the Witcher 3 has in-depth stories, the like of which we may never see again in future games, and unlike a book, the choices your Geralt makes can completely change the outcomes. Close behind, as you mentioned, would be game stories from Obsidian & Bioware (older games, pre-ME Andromeda).
Kaamos_Llama
Moderator
Fair. Every genre with an open world that I don't care to play much of basically, survival games too I suppose.
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