Headphone random conversation

[Colif]

Every single DAP review seems to have the same point:

This isn't a phone:

• It doesn't have the latest version of Android as the makers have to change much of it to work properly as a music player. If android was so easy to change, phone makers would have made one of them by now... closest in past we got was Sony and LG was last one with good sound on a phone.
• It doesn't have latest Snapdragon SOC. Doesn't need it really, most are fast enough for the task they designed for, if made in last 3 years.
• It doesn't have a camera or 7 as its not a phone.
• Most only have 4gb of ram as they don't need anymore to play music.
• Limited internal storage compared to most phones that have 256gb or more. All have multiple ways to access streaming services. Or home servers.
• Screens aren't amazing... not good viewing angles or fast refresh rates... no 120hz displays here. Good enough to see album art.
• Can watch videos on them if you want... music videos are a thing after all.

None of the things "missing" from a DAP compared to a phone are needed to play music.

(Note: The really expensive ones don't have many of these limitations. The Android rule applies to all of them that use Android, Astal & Kern have their own OS, as do HiBy. None have cameras).

DAPS have two things most phones don't anymore

1. headphone jacks,
2. and they all accept SD cards so you can expand their storage and access music libraries.

People see the screen and want to play games on them. That isn't its purpose... go play on your phone... which is another device that shouldn't be entertainment but I am too late to start that.

DAP doesn't replace phone for most people... many happy using their silly tws earbuds that their god Apple released and don't see need for a music player when they have Itunes that is playing Taylor Swift at AAC Codec (One of the worst),

The internal differences between an Iphone and DAP are what make the DAP more suited to music. Its not a status symbol pretendiing to be a phone.

DAP replaces the phone for me. I mainly only use my phone to play music, before I got all the new stuff in this thread, I was using it as my music source for something. It has only gotten worse in the last week. Happily swap a DAP into spot phone fills now. Get better quality BT sound for Bathys and longer battery life. Less things need charging. The DAC I have now can stay attached to PC from then on, DAP replaces it and phone. Easier to hold in one hand too.

Buying a DAP means I might forget to pick up my phone... oh no, people can't contact me... what am I to do? I miss the days before mobile phones. Going out and disappearing. No one knows where you are and can't track/contact you... the horror. Helicopter parents around world would be in shock.

 

[Colif]

I will potentially buy a HiBy R6 Pro 2 in the next few months. Just need to stop looking at it until I can afford it.

I had been looking at two Fiio DAP but figured if I spending that much, might as well see if I can find one with a newer version of Android compared to the one they use. Being as close to newest Android means apps should work with them longer. You would hope music app makers realise that some users might still be on older versions of Android for a reason. And support them.

Most DAP makers still using Android 10, The R6 is on Android 12 which is only 2 versions behind current version on Phones.
Its a little more expensive than the Fiio's but it also has more ability to change how to it sounds. Its also meant to sound better than the M11 plus Ess.

I thought Zeos was going to complain about its power output, not its button placement

Strange, search Google shopping for them and not one Ali Express entry came up. Almost every othre search shows at least one. Perhaps Chinese firms have some sway over the site.

 

[anort3]

Looks pretty nice. Headfonics likes it. I'm sure you probably saw this.

HiBy R6 Pro II Review

We review the HiBy R6 Pro II, which is an Android 12 digital audio player featuring a new dual-mono dual AK4499EX DAC 'all-in' audio architecture. It is priced at $749. Disclaimer: This sample was sent

headfonics.com

One thing I will say is the Fiio has the THX amplification circuit and has more raw power if you ever decided to go the wired headphone route. You wouldn't necessarily need more power. That would depend on what headphone it was. This Hiby seems more aimed at IEMs than full sized headphones though.

It is really cool you can switch between class A and class A-B. Reviews say it gets hot and that's likely the class A.

 

[Colif]

It can push 383 through balanced. That is enough for most headphones I am likely to get, even if I did get the sennheiser at some stage.

The output seems to be misleading, most testers found it didn't struggle with most headphones, obviously not suited to some planars though

Don't think I would get the purple one though.

Class A is a trade off. Less battery for better sound. Also more heat. Use in class A at home
AB is more battery and sound difference isn't that big. Handy for travel.

I read one review where they wanted 256gb storage and 6gb ram... no, stop wanting your DAP to be a fat phone.

 

[Colif]

Heh ping me when you can figure that one out. It's a subjective term.

I had to find an answer since I hear it all time.
Musical seems to be: lacking detail, just for people who want to enjoy the music, the way they want to hear it, without picking apart all the details. Opposite of clinical/analytical. So anything that isn't nuetral.

The way that I see it, this two terms are used by one category of people: those who do not want a faithful reproduction of the sound, but want to enjoy music the way they like. That’s entirely, perfectly fine and that’s a choice as valid as any other. As an audiophile, though, my personal aim is to get as close to the original sound as possible, so what I look for is “clinical” (flat frequency response, no added colouration) instead of “musical” (with added emphasis on some part of the spectrum, which usually means bass and lower midrange). That’s not always the case, though, an as these terms are broad in definition everyone uses them with their very own meaning, making things more difficult to understand as few people explain what meaning they attribute to the terms.

I did take my answer from: https://forum.headphones.com/t/musi...rile-clinical-meaning-of-terms/4382/60?page=4

I am both... I think anyone can be. Unless you anal. Most people would see a value in either type of sound aspect, as people who like to hear every detail might just want to relax once in a while. I don't want to hear a wall of sound and not be able to pick out instruments.

I think my IEM would be classified as musical, but different people hear them different. They have a wide sound stage but not a lot of depth. It doesn't always feel like the singer is inside my head. I feel bass I normally don't get, so the two drivers that run the bass sure are working

Guess I do feel it in this song through my speakers, sub just not in my ear.

They almost 2 weeks old so should be getting to their final form... if they changed at all.

 

[anort3]

Yep, it can drive most headphones pretty well.

I like what makes the music sound good. For me that's usually an almost neutral tuning as long as there's good bass extension. Soundstage is almost a non issue for me. Although good soundstage is nice my liking something is not dependent on it.

 

[Colif]

Want 6gb of ram in your DAP? Fine, you can have it... for the small price of $3500.

iBasso DX320MAX - iBasso Audio

ibasso.com

The only DAP with 6gb of ram so far is a flagship model... An extra 2gb of ram +64gb more storage will set you back double the price. Is it really worth it?
Bet you still can't play any games with that extra 2. This unit is hardly a device you would want to play a game on anyway. Its not light enough.

Expect someone still complained its too slow or something... a money has no limit dap is still on Android 11. The humanity... why isn't it on 14... we want miracles here. The SOC is exactly the same as lower models, meaning BT is still only version 5, not 5.3. Why didn't they get a faster SOC just for this tiny run of 888 units?

If you could see past the surface level, you would realize most of the difference in value comes from the parts used inside. But when your review is 5 pages long and most of its on non sound related, its easy to overlook what really matters.

iBasso DX320 MAX Ti Review

In this post, we review the iBasso DX320 MAX Ti, which is a high-end transportable Android 11-based digital audio player with Class A amplification. It is priced at $3499. Disclaimer: This sample was sent to

headfonics.com

Wonder how much use that 2gb of ram is. I doubt you would notice it. More a status symbol... among idiots... I have 2gb more ram... exciting at a time PC can have up to 128gb installed (or more). Guess reviewers only use mobiles themselves so its a lack of knowledge thing... probably just as well or they be asking for a lot more ram... in a tiny box... yes, that works.

they only making 888 worldwide of that model. Unlike the Astal & Kern top line model, it doesn't seem to be made of gold.

People who review these things will never be happy until the makers somehow make a DAP that is more advanced than the top line phones... in other words, they will never get there.

More articles on "are DAP's needed" than articles on them... sheeple happy using their phone for everything, using Itunes to stream Taylor Swift to their crappy earpods. Easier to track them all if they happily carry around their tracking devices, and feel lost without them... idea of going out without your phone is a nightmare to them.

So if most people don't see the point in something, there won't be large amounts of money spent on improving it. Change will be as glacial as it is in Apple. No need if there is no one competiting hard. Just be good enough.

The mistake was making them candy bar shaped, they look like phones now. So people expect them to be exactly the same. Its because there are too many idiots alive now.

No real understanding of what is possible. They so remind me of people who complain in every GPU thread... wahhh... you didn't give me free performance. Naming scheme reminds me of someone... Super Duper TI next generation?

 

[anort3]

Do DAPs even get Android updates? The cheaper ones I've had only got an occasional firmware update. Obviously my LG V35 got Android updates but it was a DAP with a phone attached.

 

[Colif]

I wouldn't think they would. They get updates for features but the OS seems to be locked down at launch. Since the hardware in almost every new one is different, there wouldn't be the incentive to update the OS on older models. Instead they just release a new model.
Fiio have same updates for all the M11s models, as they all similar enough. But none of it is an Android version update.

They might fix it if there is a major problem, but as the newest version of Android on any dap is 2 years old, they might use finalised versions of the OS. And then cut out things they don't need.

 

[anort3]

they might use finalised versions of the OS. And then cut out things they don't need.

Yep. No weird issues that way.

 

[Colif]

Not all daps use Android, the cheaper ones more likely to use the HiBY OS
Some are more open to what you can install on their Android installs while some don't include the play store at all, and you have to use some other site to side load apps.

Astell & Kern use a modified version of Android and only have certain apps they allow you to install.
I think the R6 Pro is pretty much open. It comes with the play store installed. Think you need to side load on some Fiio M11s but its hard to say as the videos based on older versions of installed software and I think M11s Plus ESS has the playstore now.

Only things you can't run on it are communication apps. I don't think chat would work... it might. Not sure if it needs a simcard to work? Phone calls are not possible. DAC's need to shrink before the units get super slim.

 

[Colif]

@Brian Boru

 

[Colif]

So if I attach my Bathys to the PC via USB, and look in sound properties, it shows as connected as:
2 channels, 24bit/192k
If I look at my BTR7 it shows as 1 channel, 32bit/384 (not that tidal plays that high)

curious why there is a difference in bit rate.
32bit files are just containers for 24bit audio. Its how its sent to the BTR7 but why is the DAC in the Bathys being fed 24bit? I would have thought it be seen the same as the BTR7

I wonder if PC converts it into a 32bit container and sends it to Bathys so its dac can convert back... AFAIK Bathys can't accept analog signals

reads link, still isn't sure whats going on

People think they can buy 24bit dacs. Shame there aren't any 24bit chips out there... so 32bit is smallest you can go (ignores 16 & 8 & 4 bit). Some of the extra padding in the files can be used for volume data. It doesn't alter or make music any better.

 

[Colif]

just found the box to this... I can't recall having it. Though it was 2007. I kept buying them until they stopped making them, or changed their name and went up market

I think its the last media player I bought. But I may have said that before. I need to look around and see what else I might find.

 

[Colif]

Think I might get one of these in a few months. Maybe by then there will be more than one place with youtube reviews of it

iBasso DX260 - iBasso Audio

ibasso.com

Or a HiBy R6 Gen 3
Or a HiBy R6 Pro Mk 2

Glad I need to save to buy any... I love being indecisive.

 

[Colif]

Every other day its a different one. Once I have the cash I will decide.

So glad I am not inclined to buy second hand headphones or buy them off sites that don't protect the user. I go to store websites, not places like Amazon or Facebook or Ali Express... though since most IEM don't seem to come to Australia I might one day have to risk the last one.

Glad I also didn't want Apple Airpods. They wouldn't match my phone - getting them to work on Android is pointless as some features only work in the software and Apple didn't release an app on Android (who would have guessed). They don't want people matching them to any phone/computer apart from the ones they make.

 

[Colif]

Or a HiBy R6 Gen 3
Or a HiBy R6 Pro Mk 2

Glad I need to save to buy any... I love being indecisive.

I think I have flip flopped enough in the last few weeks. Looked at newer ones but there just aren't any reviews.

the Dx260 is at a price where I would question if I would feel safe taking it out, which kind of defeats purpose of buying it. There are lots of unanswered questions due to there only being one Youtube review and one written one... So I wait a few weeks, look for new reviews and still nothing. Rinse and repeat.

that was fine when I was saving up, but now I am close enough to consider what to buy.

Many of them don't use Android or if they do, its an old version and you have to wonder how long they get app support for. One below at least has Android 12. Its only downside is its battery life but I really don't travel for long so I don't see it as a problem. The upside is better sound quality as the battery drain is from 2 desktop grade amps that chew power.

So I probably get a Hiby R6 Pro 2 in the next few weeks. Its not exactly cheap itself but it comes with a leather case while the other only has a clear plastic one... so it should be fine, It looks like a mobile phone as well, a lot of Digital Audio Players are chunky and don't just blend in. It won't stand out... unless I got the purple one.

One new one I had looked at that I had decided against for one reason, turns out to not have wifi or BT, making it really hard to get music onto. I only found that out reading comments on a video. This is one reason I need more reviews, I hadn't even noticed that fact even looking at its website.

 

[Colif]

Hiby R6 Pro 2 -

• Battery life is max of about 8 hours in non balanced Class A/B mode, but in balanced outputs in Class A mode, its down to 5 hours.
• comes with fake leather case but buttons hard to press in it.
• button layout can make it easy to press two buttons at once, on both sides of device at once.
• uses buttons to increase volume, some of the side buttons are in a weird order but can be changed in software.
• non replaceable battery (but to be fair, every other dap except below is the same)

HiBy R6pro II

New generation DAP from HiBy with new exterior design and All-In Octa-DAC design powering all 8 DAC rails of 2x AK4499EX full-time

www.head-fi.org

Ibasso DX260 -

• Battery life is approx 14 hours, no class A or A/B Mode switch (I think it runs in A/B mode). Average battery use seems to be about 10 hours full stop playing. You can charge and play at same time. No desktop mode where it runs off mains and by passes battery - more expensive Fiio players have this but their sound is questioned.
• Comes with a cheap plastic case (with 4 screen protectors in the box), can buy an extra leather case afterwards.. not cheap though. might have to buy from them direct as the official ones not available here. The unofficial ones I can find are questionable in value.
• Has a volume wheel but it seems its too sensitive, changes too easy if in pockets. can be disabled when screen isn't on. Probably fixable in software. only 4 buttons on side of unit including volume wheel which is also a button.
• replaceable battery... just take back off and replace yourself.

iBasso DX260 Digital Audio Player

iBasso DX260 - DAP with Octa DAC-chip Matrix and easy replaceable battery.

www.head-fi.org

Both advertise as octo dac so its hard to pick apart. They use different make DAC chips,
The R6Pro2 has three dac chips, AK4191EQ+ and dual AK4499EX, from AKM. The AK499EX are desktop grade dac chips, hence reason they drain battery on unit faster.
The Ibasso DX260 uses 8x CS43198 from Cirrus Logic

So it seems to me that the R6 Pro 2 uses Two dac chips to simulate eight DAC chips whereas the DX260 actually has eight chips - four per channel. Some actions might not be possible with only two actual chips. DX260 uses four per channel to smooth out the music, from what I understand.

The ability to drive some headphones is questionable on the Pro 2, the DX260 seems much more powerful from what I understand??

R6 pro = 125mw through unbalanced 3.5mm and 383mw through balanced 4.4mm connections.
DX260 = either 280mw @32ohms or 584mw @ 16ohm though unbalanced 3.5mm, and 1015mw @32 ohms through balanced 4.4mm.
its not even close.

not really a problem on IEM but might make difference on full sized headphones I might buy in future.

I was going to buy one on Monday but still tossing/turning about which I want. Second thoughts every few days, back to leaning towards the Ibasso again.

@anort3 which would you get?

The longer I wait, more chance of another sale.
There is a price difference but its really not that big. DX260 is $350 more but it sounds like its better as well

 

[Colif]

Anort suggested the cheaper one based on it having a class A amp and the brand of its DAC chips. Another person knowledgeable about sound also suggested it as well.

I took their advice and ordered a R6 Pro 2. It should be here in two days, I did my usual trick of ignoring public holidays and well, it is one tomorrow... otherwise I probably get it tomorrow. No rush.

it does have more ways to tune the sound than the other does.
on top of an EQ and a Parametric one, it also has MSEB which essentially does same things. Just with descriptions rather than a graph

MageSound 8-ball (MSEB):

1 -- Overall Temperature is a tilt of the whole line towards treble (cool) or bass (warm)
2 -- Bass extension 70Hz and below
3 -- Bass texture 100Hz (medium)
4 -- Note thickness 200Hz (wide)
5 -- Vocals 650Hz (very wide)
6 -- Female overtones 3kHz (tight)
7 -- Sibilance LF 5.8kHz (medium)
8 -- Sibilance HF 9.2kHz (medium)
9 -- Impulse response 7.5kHz (very wide)
10 - Air 10kHz sloped all the way to 20kHz

Some subjective thoughts about Hiby MSEB

Because English is not my first language,I hope you can understand it. To me, low means frequency under 150hz, mid means 150hz to 5khz, high means 5khz to 10khz, extreme high means 10khz above. Mseb has 10 options. 1. Overall Temperature : this option increases low and a part of mid( maybe below...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Each header is on a balance, so Overall temp has extremes of Cool/Bright and Warm/Dark, Bass texture ranges from Fast to Thumpy. Guess its one way to find out what they mean in reviews, they call things warm and bright etc and I am like... what does it mean?
Essentially lets you set how you want everything to sound. It can be in the Mango app or player wide.

I think I leave it in defaults until I get to know what it sounds like. From memory it works well with bass heavy headphones, so my Vulcans should work well.

Think Headphones of some kind will be next. I haven't even looked. Enjoy this new toy for a while.

how to fix case:

There is a simple fix to the inadvertent button pushes in the case… peel back (do not completely remove) the little tabs by each case button band remove the little pieces of plastic underneath, and just fold the little tabs back in place. That’s it, and now the buttons will be much less sensitive.

discussed post 379 - https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hiby-r6-pro-ii-2023-edition-launch-hype-thoughts-more.966836/page-26

 

[ipman]

I do get excited about my new tech. I don't think I'm up in your audio league @Colif.

I've got a Sony Walkman NW-A105 which is just for backup. For wandering around home I use my Fairphone 5(no sim just for music and apps) and my new toy the Bluesound Node, which can only be controlled by a smartphone but is mains connected and ethernet.
The Sony WH-1000X5's are good enough for me at present as I'm just streaming on them .

For real sound quality I'm still using the KRK studio speakers Rokit 8 as PC speakers and they are like hearing music fresh again.

 

[Colif]

i have had Sony mp3 players before. One of my last ones was from Sony. yours is newer I see, mine was tiny but I think it had 16gb storage
One difference I see between your DAP and my new one is:

The NW-A105, like the A55, still hisses a great deal with sensitive earphones. If you plug in something like the Campfire Audio Andromeda, it will produce a constant and noticeable background fuzz.

Mine makes no background noise. That was intentional, its part of why its overall power is lower than other DAP.

I couldn't tell you how many portable players I have had in the last 40 years... I started on walkman and had a few of those before jumping to CD and then HDD based MP3, and finally flash based (see below). This is the most expensive one I have bought and having just spent the last few hours reading forum posts about it, it sounds like it should be good.
No glaring problems that can't be fixed in software. Its biggest problem is the case and it just needs a small adjustment to make it better. Might not use it right away anyway

Here is my old one between my BTR7 and an old Samsung S10

I had a pair of these before I bought anything this time around:

Sennheiser PXC 550 Wireless Review

The Sennheiser PXC 550 Wireless are above-average and versatile headphones for most use cases. They have a great design, excellent active features, and a customi...

www.rtings.com

So I had already had headphones like the Sony, I just wanted more this time around. It is why I overlooked them.

Admittedly the Bathys was perhaps an over reaction but until recently they were still best sounding wireless headphones under a certain price. I just don't use them as much as I should.

I have used my Dunu Vulkan IEM attached to BTR7 which is in turn attached to PC... way more than any other combo.

The new DAP replaces everything except IEM in that circuit.

My last few Headphone purchases have been improving the quality each time. I used to be happy with really cheap headphones.

I don't have space for a speaker set up so headphones are my only real choice. DAP might act as my desktop unit for a while... it has line out so If I ever go mad, it could be part of system.

 

[ipman]

I think what I've been doing is setting limits on what I'm prepared to pay, so at present that's been up to £300 for headphones and about £500 for a player. And also wondering if for each £100 I go above that am I actually getting a value increase in sound quality.

I've still got a couple of mini disk players +Sony NW-A105. I do have pretty sensitive hearing and I've never noticed any problems with my tech. I must have a 250GB micro SD in walkman.

When I say streaming, it's more complex. I've got a Marantz streaming device which pretty much plays anything including FLAC format. I actually play online radio stations overnight, record them on my Tascam as WAV files, transfer those to my phone or a USB which I play on Bluesound Node(tech nutter alert).

It's getting a bit crazy though; I've got wired audio technicas and three noise cancelling bluetooth headphones(so there's always two charged).
I also fitted a Zemite bluetooth transmitter to my PC which gives great coverage and never fades out. I get confused sometimes; which device is playing and which headphones have I got on.

I'm not sure about some of these app graphic equalisers though on the phone . But the PC is using the Creative software.

I did post on here a while ago a way of comparing studio speakers which was helpful and made me decide, but I'm not sure if it would work with headphones.
So you'll have to let us know if you think the higher end equipment is really worth it. I suppose it depends on what type of music and personal preferences. Or just treat yourself, you only live once.

 

[Colif]

i forgot my mini disc player...it was fun. I think I still have a disc around somewhere...

I need to get a 512gb sd card probably next week. I want to download all my playlists onto dap and pretty sure they won't fit in its 64gb of memory

Really the main reason I got this dap is the screensize. Makes it easier to read compared to the smaller ones. I am getting old and my ability to read small things is departing me. Problem is that up until a certain point, the bigger the screen increases the cost of unit.

One just slightly les expensive than mine has a 4.9inch screen... mine has 5.9inch. Think biggest I can find on any is 6inches. Some are the more expensive ones have higher resolution diaplays though, mine is 1080p. Some are 1440p which is overkill on a audio player... though people do install Youtube on them... I am not sure I will

Its only after say $USD2000 that the screen size is no longer the thing that increases price Its the parts inside that start to count or what outputs they have on them. Some are so big they are impossible to fit in your pocket... sort of borderline desktop amps at that stage

Bigger DAP also have more space to include more things, like a larger battery and more complicated stages for the DAC, So its not entirely just the screensize I get for my money. I think its got biggest display on any portable dac below $USD1000.

I wouldn't feel safe walking around with a dap that cost above USD1000. The other one I was looking at costs USD990, I was balking at its cost... turns out the 3 dac chips in the one I picked are better than the 8 in the other one.

I will post in a few weeks about sound unless its so dramatically better I can't hold it in

I don't have any idea about desktop set ups. I haven't even thought about networking this thing. One step at a time. I haven't even got it yet...

 

[ipman]

I've just been reading the components spec, just that sounds amazing never mind the audio output.

There does seem to be some concerns about battery life but that may be of no concern depending on your usage, but my main concern with these devices is replacing the battery. I was just looking at the manual and it said don't open the device so I'm not sure if you found out about that.

That was my problem with the Sony and why I use the Fairphone5 for portable playing of music as the battery is replaceable.
I think it's a bit of a nightmare these days choosing tech, I try to compare specs, watch YT reviews and read up so many options and so many variables, in the end I often just 'go for it'.

But it's guaranteed to sound amazing, enjoy

 

[Colif]

I was just looking at the manual and it said don't open the device so I'm not sure if you found out about that.

So far I haven't found the manual? I can find the quick start guide online but nothing about the battery in there?

HiBy R6PROII QUCIK GUIDE

Yes, they misspelled Quick in the URL
or do you mean yours?

I have seen how simple it is meant to be on mine, unscrew back... I can see replacement batteries for it online.

this is same page, just a little longer. Assume its the US quick guide marked as a manual

https://manuals.plus/hiby/r6proii-high-resolution-music-player-manual

I don't think it counts as disassembling to just replace battery