PCG Article Do you want an undo button on strategy games?

[ZedClampet]

Put an 'undo' button in every strategy game--(article link)

I think at most this should be optional. If it isn't optional, some players are going to obsessively use it and not even really enjoy it. Maybe you could put other options related to an 'undo' button as well; for instance, in Total War you could have the option of only undoing army movements (since it can be unreliable sometimes). Maybe this isn't the best example. I dunno. Maybe you could choose to allow undoing a diplomacy decision (sometimes it isn't clear how long you've had a treaty, for instance, until you break it).

But I can see this being abused, and I can see some gamers feeling compelled to abuse it simply because it's an option, and that could cause them to enjoy the game less. What do you all think about adding an 'undo' to your favorite strategy game? It's really only a slightly easier save-scumming, anyway.

PS: @Brian Boru are you interested in Old World? I'd never heard of it. Looks a bit like Civ and is made by the guy who directed (I think) Civ 4, which seems to be your favorite. Apparently it's only on the Epic store right now, but PC Gamer refers to it as the best strategy game this year.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

Seems like a really good idea, nothing more annoying than a mis-click. I tend towards playing strategy games on Ironman mode once I understand the basics, so this would have saved me many a time.

I'm not sure how you could exploit it or abuse it? Sometimes you miss something on a map and move a piece into a spot where you wouldn't have if you'd noticed the danger. Otherwise a misclick is only fair to take back IMO. I've probably stopped playing a few times due to accidents like that, so I feel like it would cause me to enjoy games more.

 

[Zloth]

It could be massively abused, depending on the type of game and what you allow people to undo.

(This would open up the problem of undoing after a sniper misses a 95% shot—one of the classic, agonizing frustrations in all turn-based games—though maybe it's high time that injustice was washed away in another fashion anyway.)

You put your soldier behind some low cover, take the 50% shot. Missed. Undo, Take the 75% shot. Missed. Undo. Take the 98% shot. Cuss. Undo. Hunker down. Unless you have the game set to not use a list of random numbers but to re-roll every time, in which case you go after that 50% as many times as it takes to get the coin to flip your way.

No big deal. Let them undo movement, not attacks!

Except there's that overwatch mechanic. You move your sniper to another spot and she gets shot dead by a lucky alien. Undo. But this one isn't quite so easy! I've had plenty of times where I meant to have a soldier with lightning reflexes (and thus overwatch immunity) move first but forgot. I would be doing well to be honest enough with myself to distinguish the difference - there's no way a computer is going to know the difference.

Tricky stuff for sure.

P.S. BIG +1 to Mohawk for assigning undo to control-Z. Help teach computer literacy!

P.P.S. Old World looks like a mix between Civ (limited to ancient'ish times) and Crusader Kings.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

It could be massively abused, depending on the type of game and what you allow people to undo.

You put your soldier behind some low cover, take the 50% shot. Missed. Undo, Take the 75% shot. Missed. Undo. Take the 98% shot. Cuss. Undo. Hunker down. Unless you have the game set to not use a list of random numbers but to re-roll every time, in which case you go after that 50% as many times as it takes to get the coin to flip your way.

No big deal. Let them undo movement, not attacks!

Except there's that overwatch mechanic. You move your sniper to another spot and she gets shot dead by a lucky alien. Undo. But this one isn't quite so easy! I've had plenty of times where I meant to have a soldier with lightning reflexes (and thus overwatch immunity) move first but forgot. I would be doing well to be honest enough with myself to distinguish the difference - there's no way a computer is going to know the difference.

Tricky stuff for sure.

P.S. BIG +1 to Mohawk for assigning undo to control-Z. Help teach computer literacy!

P.P.S. Old World looks like a mix between Civ (limited to ancient'ish times) and Crusader Kings.

That makes sense. I wasn't thinking about tactics games, it wouldn't work there in the same way as 4x.

You could limit the retake to once per turn to include movement and firing, but still its totally abusable and would break the game balance.

I played some Urtuk the Desolation earlier this year, that has an option to undo a move as long as no damage or status effects had been inflicted with the move. It was nice sometimes when you moved to a tile that was lower down by accident, for example.

 

[Colif]

its a strategy game, if you fail then your strategy is bad. Redo removes the risk and it becomes almost a TAS where you just keep trying until you get the perfect result.

limited redo might work. Perhaps if you given the number of redos bases on previous fights and one of those can't have a redo option. Skill is what should determine how many redos you get.

redo strikes me as a way to reduce replays, as why if you can just pass everytime. It reminds me of skill rerolls in arpg, they remove the amount of times you have to play game again. No penalties for failing

 

[Brian Boru]

I think at most this should be optional

Absolutely. I'm all in favor of options, put the player more in charge of what kind of game and experience se wants. Far Cry 5 didn't have an option to drop the infamous capture sequences, so I dropped the game until a modder did what Ubisoft should have done. On the other hand, Sniper Ghost Warrior 3 had an option to turn off the repetitively boring and immersion-breaking head shot explosions, so kudos there.

Options are a universally good thing!

There's a reason almost every piece of software has Undo and Redo—I don't see why games should think themselves unique in cramping player agency.

For those worried it'll spoil a game for those incapable of not using such option, have a cost attached to each use—I'm fine spending 10 or 100 gold for an undo, or losing some health, or a slowdown before I can do X again, or…

Let them undo movement, not attacks!

Yeah, that makes sense.

Where Undo would be especially useful:

1. Figuring out a new game. If I jump off this cliff into the lake, will it kill me? Can this guy be taken down with one arrow? Etc.

2. Game glitch, eg you or companion getting stuck on terrain.

3. Mis-click—guy goes somewhere other than where you thought you sent him.

4. QTEs—I hate QuickTime Events!

are you interested in Old World?

Oh yes, I've had it wishlisted for a while, it has its own forum on CivFanatics. It is indeed by Soren Johnson, lead designer of Civ4, and has been generally well received. Happily my PC hits the low recommended specs!

Thanks for the heads-up

 

[Pifanjr]

I'm in favour of this. When playing a single-player game, I don't really see a need to limit the amount of undos. I'm all in favour of giving players more power to play the game however they like. It's why I'm so grateful for Elder Scrolls games allowing you to mess around with the debugging console. And for games that are easy to mod so you can change whatever aspect you don't like about the game. Though there would be no harm in allowing players to disable/hide the undo button, of course.

In multiplayer games, you could add an option to request an undo which the other players will have to unanimously agree to. This is how it works when playing board games as well and I see no reason to treat video games any different. Perhaps add an option that if undoing a move doesn't change the game it doesn't need to be voted on.

It's honestly annoying when a game doesn't let you undo minor actions. I've never been able to get very far in Final Fantasy: Tactics because you cannot undo a move and it's not entirely clear if you'll be able to hit someone from any given position. I completed Tactics Ogre however because it does allow you to back out of a move if you haven't attacked yet.

And I agree with Luke (the writer of the article) that there's no reason not to be able to switch a worker from building a farm to building a mine within the same turn in a Civilization game.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

For a 4x game, I can't see that much of a problem with allowing a redo for a piece that hasnt attacked or interacted with anything. I got quite annoyed a few time in Endless Space recently when moving a fleet, once a unit enters a star lane it has to get to the next system to turn around, and the move is considered take even if you havent finished your turn.

It's honestly annoying when a game doesn't let you undo minor actions. I've never been able to get very far in Final Fantasy: Tactics because you cannot undo a move and it's not entirely clear if you'll be able to hit someone from any given position. I completed Tactics Ogre however because it does allow you to back out of a move if you haven't attacked yet.

This leads into what I was thinking about this today, and I think games are getting much better at this as time goes on.

Games with turn based tactical combat (Xcom, Divinity OS etc) should show via the UI what exactly will happen should you move your character/piece to a given tile. Mousing around with a character selected should show how many AP the move will take, what the chances are to hit for each visible enemy from that position, whether it passes through an overwatched enemies FOV, potential status effects the unit could suffer etc etc. Everything relevant to the player.

A really good tactical overview should allow a player to make the move they want with all relevant information considered. So that your free to worry about actual strategy and not whether the move will do what you thought it would. That being the case there shouldn't be much need for a redo button in that specific type of combat, if the UI is designed with that in mind.

I mean, I have no idea how much harder it makes a game to program but I think its better for the player that way

 

[jasino]

I think certain games should have a back button. But some definitely shouldn't. Especially if they don't undo the exact last move!!!