Civilization 5 playing it Wide w Raging Barbarians

[Brian Boru]

Worker Capture​

Why are Workers always captured so easily? All is revealed in 3 short minutes:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAFpv1CJEY8

ETA: okay, the minutes are actually standard length—sorry.

 

[ZedClampet]

Raging Barbs​

I mostly need to get better at managing the Gold cost of units. Oligarchy policy in Trad tree zaps maintenance cost for the garrison unit, so I must prioritize that. Raging means camps spawn units very quickly—I've often had a ranged unit kill the camp defender in 2-3 turns, and another defender immediately spawn to take its place… this going on for ~5-6 units.

Mind you, not complaining on the global Culture front—with Honor policy enabled each kill provides some of it, which is great early game.

I also need to get better at placing my cities to create safe zones so I can get Workers and resources running with little danger. I'm guilty of going 'the extra mile' to get a resource-heavy site… Barbs love that extra mile, the badstars!

Chap on Steam says…
"Normal barbarian in the BNW are almost as bad the raging barbarians in the G&K. Barbarians are spawning much faster in the BNW and they have randomly better units early (handaxe, horseman)"
…so it sounds like they buffed the Barbs in BNW.



My excuse is I usually setup fairly isolated starts—I don't want to deal with other civs or extra systems while trying to fine tune the basic economy and other foundation systems. So I need a credible military threat so I can't sit around with a Warrior or two, which would of course distort economy and build orders.

But yeah, they are fun too and of course useful for learning combat in the 1UPT hex system. I use a mod which removes the XP cap from Barbs, which makes up for missing out on early wars—ie should have some units of similar veterancy to any stroppy UI later on.

Tips welcome!

Religion​

That would be 6, wasn't in 4 either.



Some of your games were probably Vanilla, Religion wasn't introduced until the first expansion Gods & Kings. I let it accumulate naturally, grab the 'God of the Sea' one, and when I eventually found one, I take 2 of 3 benefits—100 Gold per city converting, 15% Food growth, 15% border growth… the latter 2 unless I'm still hurting for Gold.

But yeah, I ignore it otherwise. To see how well that works out, check my eulogy on Maria the Pious above
I also switch off Espionage and disable the World Congress victory type—no interest in dealing with them.



Pretty sure you'd need a Religion strategy for that, but that's only from reading, not practice.



Nice when that happens early on, and is your goal. Winning isn't my goal—I haven't progressed any of the earlier games pre-Emperor where I drew ahead easily beyond mid-game. I will try and win an Emperor game tho, if I get into a viable strategy—I need to see the later Techs, Policies and Ideologies to better understand how I should shape the earlier game.



Eh what?!
Aristotle was right, I need to realize that I know nothing!

Anyway, it's still fun, so there's that

I knew the fastest path to space ships. I knew very little about the policies, etc. I knew the ones I used, and I didn't stay with them straight through max, which I understand is a frowned upon strategy. At this point, I can't remember what I did exactly, but I would get two or three levels in one and switch. Eventually some or most of them would be maxed, if I remember correctly, but I wasn't concerned about maxing any of them in particular. They each had something that I wanted more than any one of them had a max bonus that I wanted.

And despite my concentration on money, I paved the world with roads (the change in roads was one of the things that turned me off to 6). I could pretty much get everywhere I owned on roads. Not so much in the early game where the cost of roads was prohibitive, but by mid game I had enough income that it wasn't a concern anymore, and I built them everywhere I could. Getting units from one side of my territory to the next in one turn came in very handy, especially since I usually had a crappy army and had to pump out troops from every city in emergency situations.

Workers was another thing that turned me off to 6. I had workers all over the place. I had to get rid of them in droves by the late midgame, when I was usually pretty much done with them anyway.

The other possibly odd thing was my minimal army. I cleared the relevant barbarians pretty quickly, and then didn't build any more military units unless someone started massing at my borders or just outright attacked, although I was the frequent recipient of gift units. I did all the military research and whatever buildings were necessary, but didn't build out my army until I had to. I was the frequent subject of ridicule by other leaders for my pathetic army.

Usually the reason people attacked me was because I dominated diplomacy with the minor factions. I was very big into being the main squeeze for all the little guys. Got to have their resources to build my rockets But these wars were usually late game, and by then I found them much more interesting, having proper artillery, navy and air units.

In later games I tried to create groups of enemy allies to force myself to play more militarily, but often they still didn't attack until at least the mid/mid late game.

 

[Brian Boru]

Policies​

policies … I didn't stay with them straight through max, which I understand is a frowned upon strategy. … They each had something that I wanted more than any one of them had a max bonus that I wanted

I'm same as you. Currently I adopt Honor first for the necessary Barb combat and Culture bonuses, then switch to Tradition for the Culture and Gold in first 2 Policies, then onto Liberty to get the Settler and Worker buffs. After all that, Exploration should be open, so that's next for boat movement +1.

Dunno what comes after that as I've dropped games soon after Exploration. Yes this is frowned upon, but that's by those playing more standard style games rather than our weirdos

Roads and Workers​

despite my concentration on money, I paved the world with roads

Maybe it was only introduced in G&K or BNW expansions, but roads are a significant plus in earnings, netting maybe 150%-175% of cost. But start building out from Capital, they earn only when a city connects to Capital, not just to another unconnected city. I discovered that when investing a few negative Gold turns to connect 2 cities—and found myself deeper in the red! Sudden flurry of Workers, each building one road tile towards Capital

Workers was another thing that turned me off to 6. I had workers all over the place. I had to get rid of them in droves by the late midgame

You must be thinking of a different game. Workers—known as Builders—expire in 6 after 3-7+ actions, so you never have enough of them. Again, this is after both major expansions.

Military​

my pathetic army

War is usually the easiest way to play for a win in any Civ version, so you did well coming out ahead via other victory conditions. I haven't looked into city specialization yet, dunno if it's much of a thing in 5—but in current game I did notice an inland city had access to build both Barracks and Stable, so that's done a few horsy troops for me—best for rapid transit.

In 4 after the first year or so I'd learned the combat and it ceased to have any interest from then on—later wars were a real chore, moving dozens of troops to other landmasses without Embarkation, yuck. So I built the Heroic Epic city and let it put out enough troops to prevent other civs from declaring on me—carry a big stick

Barbarians​

I cleared the relevant barbarians pretty quickly

Found an interesting 40+m video by FilthyRobot yesterday where he holds a ridiculous number of Barbs at bay with only a Warrior and Scout! He does add an Archer later when getting Settlers out, but that was it. His premise was don't attack the Barbs, just stop them from disrupting you working the tiles you need. Fortify on rough terrain and they won't attack since your bonuses are big, and keep chipping away at them with the city's ranged attack.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqg1jd39ON8


Tidbit: apparently the only way a Barb can heal is if they pillage a tile.

So that was interesting. I was pumping out more units—minimum 2 Archers + Scout—and chasing the Barbs around, which is basically a mug's game with Raging and also drains the Gold. So I must see how working and fortifying on defensible tiles works out to get 3 extra cities out quickly.

 

[ZedClampet]

Policies​

I'm same as you. Currently I adopt Honor first for the necessary Barb combat and Culture bonuses, then switch to Tradition for the Culture and Gold in first 2 Policies, then onto Liberty to get the Settler and Worker buffs. After all that, Exploration should be open, so that's next for boat movement +1.

Dunno what comes after that as I've dropped games soon after Exploration. Yes this is frowned upon, but that's by those playing more standard style games rather than our weirdos

Roads and Workers​

Maybe it was only introduced in G&K or BNW expansions, but roads are a significant plus in earnings, netting maybe 150%-175% of cost. But start building out from Capital, they earn only when a city connects to Capital, not just to another unconnected city. I discovered that when investing a few negative Gold turns to connect 2 cities—and found myself deeper in the red! Sudden flurry of Workers, each building one road tile towards Capital



You must be thinking of a different game. Workers—known as Builders—expire in 6 after 3-7+ actions, so you never have enough of them. Again, this is after both major expansions.

Military​

War is usually the easiest way to play for a win in any Civ version, so you did well coming out ahead via other victory conditions. I haven't looked into city specialization yet, dunno if it's much of a thing in 5—but in current game I did notice an inland city had access to build both Barracks and Stable, so that's done a few horsy troops for me—best for rapid transit.

In 4 after the first year or so I'd learned the combat and it ceased to have any interest from then on—later wars were a real chore, moving dozens of troops to other landmasses without Embarkation, yuck. So I built the Heroic Epic city and let it put out enough troops to prevent other civs from declaring on me—carry a big stick

Barbarians​

Found an interesting 40+m video by FilthyRobot yesterday where he holds a ridiculous number of Barbs at bay with only a Warrior and Scout! He does add an Archer later when getting Settlers out, but that was it. His premise was don't attack the Barbs, just stop them from disrupting you working the tiles you need. Fortify on rough terrain and they won't attack since your bonuses are big, and keep chipping away at them with the city's ranged attack.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqg1jd39ON8


Tidbit: apparently the only way a Barb can heal is if they pillage a tile.

So that was interesting. I was pumping out more units—minimum 2 Archers + Scout—and chasing the Barbs around, which is basically a mug's game with Raging and also drains the Gold. So I must see how working and fortifying on defensible tiles works out to get 3 extra cities out quickly.

Sorry, I wrote that about the builders very badly. I meant that I had tons of them in 5 and couldn't do that in 6, which was why the builders in 6 turned me off (as well as the roads, which I think were only made as a part of trade routes, but I could be wrong again ).

Not sure where my confusion is on the roads/gold, though. I thought they were an expense, at least early game. Guess my memory is playing tricks on me. But I did definitely build tons of roads.

This whole conversation is making me want to reinstall the game, but I'd probably only ruin my perfect record, not that it really matters anymore. It mattered at the time, but I'm a different person now completely. I hardly remember anything about those days.

One weird thing that I read that you can probably explain to me....I wish I could find the link. I read it recently, and I think it was on reddit. Someone complained that in order to win the game you had to build the temple right away and others agreed with him. I'm almost sure they were talking about 5. I don't remember the temple as an emergency?

 

[Brian Boru]

Roads​

in 6 … roads, which I think were only made as a part of trade routes

Been a bit since I dipped into 6, but I'm pretty sure you're right. The Roman UU Legion could build roads too if I recall correctly.

roads/gold, though. I thought they were an expense

You're right, each road tile is 1 Gold cost per turn. However using them to connect cities brings in bigger income—I don't know if there's an exact calc but it's close to double the cost. So minus 1 and plus 2 in rough terms.

Same with rail later, but there is a Wagon Trains Policy in the Commerce tree which halves the cost. By mid game tho you are likely to be bringing in lots of Gold from Trade Routes—fyi sea routes pay double land routes, but are more difficult to defend from Barbs—improvement buffs, commerce buildings and selling resources to other civs. So it's entirely feasible to afford to build lots of extra roads by that stage, which is likely when you did it.

Temple​

in order to win the game you had to build the temple right away

I don't have a good answer on that, don't see it as an emergency either, but haven't paid attention yet—still working on core basics But it's likely if playing a high level and going for a Culture win, that you need to start generating Faith asap—so Shrine for +1 with Pottery and Temple for +2 at Philosophy. Faith plays into Tourism somehow, which is apparently the prime method of winning by Culture.

 

[ZedClampet]

Roads​

Been a bit since I dipped into 6, but I'm pretty sure you're right. The Roman UU Legion could build roads too if I recall correctly.



You're right, each road tile is 1 Gold cost per turn. However using them to connect cities brings in bigger income—I don't know if there's an exact calc but it's close to double the cost. So minus 1 and plus 2 in rough terms.

Same with rail later, but there is a Wagon Trains Policy in the Commerce tree which halves the cost. By mid game tho you are likely to be bringing in lots of Gold from Trade Routes—fyi sea routes pay double land routes, but are more difficult to defend from Barbs—improvement buffs, commerce buildings and selling resources to other civs. So it's entirely feasible to afford to build lots of extra roads by that stage, which is likely when you did it.

Temple​

I don't have a good answer on that, don't see it as an emergency either, but haven't paid attention yet—still working on core basics But it's likely if playing a high level and going for a Culture win, that you need to start generating Faith asap—so Shrine for +1 with Pottery and Temple for +2 at Philosophy. Faith plays into Tourism somehow, which is apparently the prime method of winning by Culture.

Yeah, I wondered about the temple and the culture win. I only did a culture win once, and it was something of an accident. Think it was actually the first game I played.

 

[Zloth]

Was that a Cuckoo bird at the start of the video!? I didn't know they lived in the USA.

 

[Brian Boru]

Was that a Cuckoo bird at the start of the video!?

You mean the Barb video? I listened to first minute again, didn't hear anything.

My bet is one perched on your head but you didn't notice

"across all the world's continents except Antarctica"

 

[Brian Boru]

@ZedClampet found an info screen which suggests roads earn about 150% of what they cost:

But that's with Machu Picchu wonder, which says it adds 25% to connections—so I guess the raw is about 125% earning 🤷‍♂️

Machu Picchu​

Cool that the game builds it on a mountain top

Quick Cities, closer together​

Said I'd try this, and it's worked much better. Got 4 cities out by turn 75, and able to start safely improving them. Waited then for the 50% Settler bonus Policy before doing the next wave, currently at turn #186 have 11 cities with a Settler en route for #12.

I didn't chase the Barbs, just let them come to me. No problem with the City defense allied with a garrisoned Archer, and a second loose Archer around the most exposed City—the garrisoned guys didn't cost any maintenance since I got that Policy early on.

Only thing I don't have a handle on is how the Policy costs are escalating with each new City, so I may need to ramp up Culture.

Isabella's Missionaries and 'War'​

Her royal PITAness did it again! As soon as we met, she sent a Holy Joe my way. I wasn't having any of that after the great stunt Maria pulled on me before—above in an earlier post—but there wasn't any option to tell her 'Quit it' under the Diplo 'Discuss' button.

So I declared war and zapped the first Joe. This landed me around -10 Gold/turn deficit thru cancelled deals, so I was forced to look into Specialists before I was ready to. With building some markets, and finishing a couple of City Connections, got back to around zero.

She sent 2 more Joes a few turns apart, which my Dromons consigned to Davy Jones' Locker. Next she sues for peace, and get this—she offers one of her 3 cities as part of the deal! This is still at Emperor level, so I dunno… I hadn't gone near her lands, had no interest in fighting, just keeping her Missionaries away from me.

I refused Seville and got 15 Gold/turn and ~90 Gold lump sum instead—and happily went back to what I was doing before she became a pest

Religion Strategy​

Apart from the passive benefits I mentioned before, I've ignored Faith and just let it trickle along—my Empress Theodora gets a free Shrine in every city. I probably need to build a few Temples when I can afford them—cost of each is 2 Gold/turn, which is steep.

I guess after I enhance my Religion, I should spend Faith on buying Inquisitors rather than Missionaries—ie let natural internal empire pressure spread my Religion to my cities, while buying defensive units to counter proselytizing from the Maria & Isabella types.

Can always DoW them of course, cos if they're pursuing Religious war, they're probably neglecting other aspects like military—but DoW is an inelegant solution for what should be a minor matter.

 

[Brian Boru]

Do you know of a way to skip the silly Play screen Civ5 stops at on initial launch?

Road Expense Halving​

One of the first Policies in the Commerce tree does this.

Before and After

Those Raging Barbs​

Doesn't look like they're going anywhere. I got Astronomy tech which allows embarked units to cross ocean tiles, and sent out some Crossbow units to make beachheads on nearby islands. Lo and behold, a couple of Barb Caravels show up for one guy and kill him—and that's before I built any Caravels!

I just ploughed straight onto Navigation which gives me Frigates, and going to use Gold to upgrade 5-6 of my best Galleasses and go hunting those blighters!

But that wasn't all. A Barb camp I was keeping an eye on suddenly sprouted a Musketman. I'm at least 2 techs away from Gunpowder, as I'd been chasing the navy techs in the top half of the tree.

If I keep this game going, I'll be really irked if I see Barb Tanks and Bombers!

 

[Hveðrungr]

Do you know of a way to skip the silly Play screen Civ5 stops at on initial launch?

Is there a mod for it?

 

[Brian Boru]

Is there a mod for it?

Not that I found in a quick scan of Steam, CivFanatics and Reddit—but if no one here knows, I'll ask on CFC, so no worries

 

[Brian Boru]

City Connections v Road Costs​

@ZedClampet Damn, those Connections really pay off mid-game—compare this to previous:

Navy Meandering​

Above income surge allowed me to pump out units, so I quickly got ~a dozen Frigates and went Barb hunting and exploring. All well and good, except I'm on a huge map so pretty soon my fine navy is spread all over the place—so I have effective units, but not an effective force.

I'm bringing them back so I can make a couple of 'corridors' for Settlers and Crossbows to occupy a couple of local significant islands—the map is still that… what was it again? —TenIslands one, so with 5 players there seems to be plenty of empty ground.

disable the World Congress victory type—no interest in dealing with them

Hmm, doesn't stop the WC process tho, just had it pop up

 

[Hveðrungr]

Hmm, doesn't stop the WC process tho, just had it pop up

The best way to stop the World Congress is to CRUSH EVERY OTHER CIVILISATION BENEATH YOUR JACKBOOT I mean it's to liaise with them respectfully and take on board their very valid concerns and

 

[Brian Boru]

Silly Play Screen at Launch

I'll ask on CFC

Got a quick answer from member 'mofab16084', where they said:
"Launch the game not through Launcher.exe (or a shortcut), but immediately, for example, through CivilizationV_DX11.exe (or a shortcut). Also, to speed up the launch, you can remove unnecessary elements in the game root, for example, the video Civ5_Opening_Movie_en_US.wmv"

 

[ZedClampet]

City Connections v Road Costs​

@ZedClampet Damn, those Connections really pay off mid-game—compare this to previous:

Navy Meandering​

Above income surge allowed me to pump out units, so I quickly got ~a dozen Frigates and went Barb hunting and exploring. All well and good, except I'm on a huge map so pretty soon my fine navy is spread all over the place—so I have effective units, but not an effective force.

I'm bringing them back so I can make a couple of 'corridors' for Settlers and Crossbows to occupy a couple of local significant islands—the map is still that… what was it again? —TenIslands one, so with 5 players there seems to be plenty of empty ground.



Hmm, doesn't stop the WC process tho, just had it pop up

I'm enjoying reading these. Thanks for the thread. Who knows what will happen with the raging barbs? Would be awesome if they get Xcom troops and just drop out of the sky on a settler being escorted by a musket dude.

At first I was a little turned off by the fact that there were Xcom units in the game at all, but they are so fun to use, I got over it quickly.

 

[Brian Boru]

Game too big​

I may drop current game and start afresh on a smaller map. Even after regrouping my navy and putting out a few more Frigates, I'm still getting Trade Routes plundered and Barb Caravels sneaking into my coastal resource areas, necessitating emergency Frigate purchasing—I have >4,000 Gold now, >100/turn, so not a problem.

I've identified 7 other islands I could settle, 1 of them a major one like my home island—so potentially ~20 more cities if no one else jumps in, which they probably won't cos they have similar in their region. My city names are getting confusing now, eg Near island West North, Near island West South

I settled 3 of them, but then just clicked a destination tile for a new Settler, not caring if he made it thru or not. So that's a sign…

Iroquois​

These are one of my current opponents, and the only one ahead of me in score. I see one of his perks is The Great Warpath, that forest and jungle work as roads, incl forming connections—that could be huge early game, so I may try him next. I love my Dromons, but one cannot live on ranged navy forever

UB Longhouse replaces Workshop and gives +1 Production to forest-jungle instead of Workshop's +10%—so again a lot stronger early on, and still stronger to endgame in cities where you have 5-6 such tiles. No chopping!

UU Mohawk Warrior replaces Swordsman with 33% combat buff in forest-jungle, but its main plus is it doesn't need Iron—so if affordable, could spam a bunch and wipe out neighbors early on. Should be affordable with those very early City Connections

Promotions​

Drill
The one which buffs in rough terrain—hill-forest-jungle. I almost always take this for land units, except maybe for a garrison Archer in a City on level ground. My thought being that it'll negate the defensive buff enemy units get from the same terrain, and allow my bonuses v Barbs to win the day.

Navy
I split these roughly 50-50 between shore bombardment and water fighting, as there's plenty of both to be had. Shore of course only happens once ranged ships are available in Medieval era with Compass tech.

Healing is the main Navy problem—unlike land units, navy can normally only heal in friendly territory. 'Friendly Territory' is that of a City-State at Friends+ level or of a Civ you have Open Borders with—latter I only just found out, I'd been refusing OB requests up to now.

The Supply promo—available after Level 2 of one of the starting promos—enables Healing anywhere. However, I've been going for L3 combat promo instead, to get…

Triple up for Logistics
Logistics gives 2 attacks per turn. As such, it's lethal for ranged units, since they don't take any damage while attacking. Also good for melee, if they outclass opponent.

…

Do these promo approaches make sense to you? I'm just learning as I go…

Barb Island​

You know that Ragnarok place? Well, here's Ragin' Rock:

Should I tell 'em they missed a few tiles? At least it looks like Barbs don't upgrade their units, a small mercy.

 

[Hveðrungr]

At least it looks like Barbs don't upgrade their units, a small mercy.

Afaik they don't upgrade the ones they have but eventually they start spawning more advanced units.

 

[Brian Boru]

eventually they start spawning more advanced units

Oh yes, I've had a few instances of them having units I can't build yet—eg a Musketman a few days ago, and a Gatling Gun in the last one above I've dropped.

I'm not sure, but it looks like as soon as any civ can build a unit, the Barbs have it as an option. I'd love to see the rules for Barb spawn, both regular and Raging. One turn it's a Crossbow, next a Brute 🤷‍♂️

 

[Hveðrungr]

I'd love to see the rules for Barb spawn, both regular and Raging.

Some logic described here:

Barbarian spawning logic

Has anyone ever looked at the logic for barbarian spawning? Does the logic decide that it wants to spawn a barb first, and then look for an appropriate place to do so (if one exists)? Or does it loop through the tiles looking for a legal place to spawn a barb, and then deciding whether to...

forums.civfanatics.com

Barbarian camps units spawning

There is one question i have about barbarian camps in the game - How often do they spawn units? Are there any factors affecting the speed they are making units - like if they are threatened or not, or whatever? Or are they programmed to spawn units in set speeds ?

forums.civfanatics.com

 

[Brian Boru]

Some logic described here:

Thanks for those, better than what I'd seen in my CFC wandering

"Loop through every plot on the map: Determine number of existing barbarian camps, number of non-water tiles that is not visible to to all"

Strange, I would've thought those would be stored in variables, updated in real-time as changes happen. Looping every tile every turn seems wasteful to me.

 

[Hveðrungr]

Strange, I would've thought those would be stored in variables, updated in real-time as changes happen. Looping every tile every turn seems wasteful to me.

It's the real-time bit. Updating it every time anything happens seems a lot more wasteful to me than doing a single loop in the end-turn.

 

[Brian Boru]

every time anything happens

But it would only be… oh wait, there would also be… and then of course… and what about…?

Hmm, ok, I'll give you that

[PS it's also possible Firaxis know how to program]

 

[Hveðrungr]

[PS it's also possible Firaxis know how to program]

Now let's not get carried away

 

[ZedClampet]

Game too big​

I may drop current game and start afresh on a smaller map.

As much as I love Kingdoms Reborn, I've never finished a game, and I'm now considering tossing my current one. I thought the area I chose for my civilization was perfect, but I'm down to one tiny spot of fresh water that I can build irrigation on for more farms, and then I'm going to have to find a place for a colony. Colonies are much harder to manage than in Civ, and I'm probably just going to roll a new map and start over.

***

Those barbarians are crazy. Reminds me of a Total War game with all their units. Sounds like if you wipe these all out they'll just spawn better units.