Question What features make a game an RPG? And is Elden Ring, or other FromSoft games, an RPG?

[ZedClampet]

To me, just being able to level up a character and pick a skill or two doesn't make a game an RPG. I like to have character customization (appearance, background, etc) and to make interesting choices all throughout the game.

For me, from what I know of Elden Ring (I haven't played it yet), it doesn't really meet my personal definition of an RPG, but neither does Call of the Wild (at least not the beginning of the game, which is all I played). I don't think this makes the games better or worse. They just don't fit into that category for me.

Your thoughts?

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

Elden Ring has a ton of different character builds based around different statistics, items you can craft like pots and weapon greases, weapon types and what skills to apply to them, offensive and defensive buffs, spells and incantations, elemental damage, probably more. I think older Dark Souls games were on the way there as the series progressed but with Elden Ring it went into full RPG territory. There's a lot of stuff to play with.

Thing is if youre a curmudgeon like me who just wants to play it as a melee action game, you dont have to engage with many of those systems. But if you want you can big brain your way to making most of the bosses much easier with abilities, NPC summons, elemental damages, special items etc. Its also easy to summon someone random to co-op any bosses youre struggling with.

I think a game with that many options can be considered a full RPG.

If youre saying an RPG has to have story choices, ER is nothing like a Bioware RPG . But there are quite a lot of quest lines that you do affect the outcomes for different characters you meet in the game. Whether you'll understand why the hell anything happened though might depend if you spent several hours reading the descriptions for random items you found around the map. Either that or watched a load of Vaatividya on Youtube. There are also 6 different endings to the game. Personally I enjoy the atmosphere and world, but I'm not here for the story really.

Sekiro definitely isn't an RPG as its too light on options for builds. Never played Bloodborne, but I understand it has a similar level of build variety as the Dark Souls games.

After saying all that I dont think its possible to define what an RPG is anymore though as the term is too general, so maybe none of the above actually matters

 

[Colif]

What makes a game an rpg? Thats a question I could ask about a lot of games.

Elden ring is more an rpg than Mario rpg is.

most of the arpg I play have stories but don't ask me what they are. Its not essential to play the game.

 

[mainer]

After saying all that I dont think its possible to define what an RPG is anymore though as the term is too general, so maybe none of the above actually matters

I have to agree, I just don't think there's an easy way to define the RPG genre (or any game genre) in any specific way, there's just too much overlap of features between the old-school genre names.

Since I play a lot of RPGs, I can tell you some of the features that I look for when considering a game:

1-Character Creation: The more detailed and complex the better, whether I'm creating a single character or a party of characters. I like choosing attributes, stats, skills, abilities, careers, or personality quirks that help define my character(s).

2-Character Advancement (leveling up): There should be some form of leveling up, and again, the more detailed the better. Leveling up your character(s) should be fun and allow you to choose new stats and/or abilities.

3-Exploration: Whether a game is open world or map based, I love the sense of the unknown when exploring new areas, not knowing what I'll run into. I've had as much fun exploring the rectangular maps of Baldur's Gate as I did with the open world of Skyrim.

4-NPCs and/or Companions: Indepth personalities and interactions with my character as well as the world around them. The details vary widely from game to game, with some being more static than others, but it's a feature that I always take a close look at.

5-Main Story & Quests: Some are shallow and some are deep and meaningful, or a combination of both. Even a generic type story can work if it has decent quests. Multiple ways to complete quests/objectives that my result in different outcomes.

6-Crafting Systems: Weapons, armor, alchemy, food; anything that can be made. I love detailed crafting, and I'd much rather build my own super sword or gun that find or buy it.

7-Home or Settlement Building: I love building & improving my settlements or home base throughout a game and watching it grow.

8-Combat: Real time, real time w/pause, or turn-based; I'm fairly open minded about that. Regardless of the mechanic, I want the combat to be fun, challenging and immersive, without being oppressive, frustrating, and overly difficult. I think it must be difficult for a game developer to create a system that appeals to everyone.

While all these are features that I look for in an RPG, none of them really define an RPG, as many of them can be found in other game genres as well. Most of the games I play have at least some of these features, though very few have all of them. It's going to come down to an individual's perception to what makes an RPG. I still consider games like System Shock & Deus Ex as RPGs, even though they're classified (usually) as immersive sims.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

Thinking about RPG types a bit more and thouight I'd share what the terms mean to me, and see if anyone agrees or disagrees or has any to add. @Mainers post describes a lot of the common elements and I agree on them, although they dont all have to be present IMO.

-CRPG came to just mean a western made RPG, whereas I always used to think of CRPG as isometric or top down and party based, like BG or early Fallout. Is the Elder Scrolls a CRPG? Stuff like Wizardy 8 maybe too?

-Action RPG for me was always a Diablo clone, like Torchlight or Grim Dawn, maybe Nox although I remember that one feeling a bit different. More recently I've heard people refer to stuff like Elden Ring as an Action RPG because it feels more action oriented but theres still some deep RPG elements. I've heard people call the newer Assassins Creed games ARPG's.

-TRPG is a newer one for me, which I think of as an RPG with turn based tactical combat. Like a Divinity Original Sin, Solasta or Wasteland.

- JRPG Turn based combat I seem to remember @ZedClampet referring to somewhere as 'shin kicking' which did tickle me. Grinding for levels, anime style or sprite based graphics. Final Fantasy or Octopath Traveller.

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Theres a lot that could probably be put in one box or the other depending on the person deciding, but thats generally the way my brain sorts stuff at the moment.

 

[Pifanjr]

-Action RPG for me was always a Diablo clone, like Torchlight or Grim Dawn, maybe Nox although I remember that one feeling a bit different. More recently I've heard people refer to stuff like Elden Ring as an Action RPG because it feels more action oriented but theres still some deep RPG elements. I've heard people call the newer Assassins Creed games ARPG's.

My assumption is that the term "action-RPG" is inspired by "action-adventure" and nowadays also describe games that combine action-adventure gameplay with RPG systems. I think @Kaamos_Llama describes it well when he says that Elden Ring has a ton of stuff to help you make unique character builds, which I think is a big part of RPGs, but you can ignore 90% of that stuff if you just want to play the game as an action-adventure game.

The story part of Elden Ring is just the same way, where there's a ton of lore to discover, but it's (almost?) entirely optional, and there's a bunch of possible interactions with the several NPCs but these too can be mostly ignored.

 

[ZedClampet]

Thinking about RPG types a bit more and thouight I'd share what the terms mean to me, and see if anyone agrees or disagrees or has any to add. @Mainers post describes a lot of the common elements and I agree on them, although they dont all have to be present IMO.

-CRPG came to just mean a western made RPG, whereas I always used to think of CRPG as isometric or top down and party based, like BG or early Fallout. Is the Elder Scrolls a CRPG? Stuff like Wizardy 8 maybe too?

-Action RPG for me was always a Diablo clone, like Torchlight or Grim Dawn, maybe Nox although I remember that one feeling a bit different. More recently I've heard people refer to stuff like Elden Ring as an Action RPG because it feels more action oriented but theres still some deep RPG elements. I've heard people call the newer Assassins Creed games ARPG's.

-TRPG is a newer one for me, which I think of as an RPG with turn based tactical combat. Like a Divinity Original Sin, Solasta or Wasteland.

- JRPG Turn based combat I seem to remember @ZedClampet referring to somewhere as 'shin kicking' which did tickle me. Grinding for levels, anime style or sprite based graphics. Final Fantasy or Octopath Traveller.

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Theres a lot that could probably be put in one box or the other depending on the person deciding, but thats generally the way my brain sorts stuff at the moment.

I think that CRPG and JRPG are so old that they mean different things now. The original definitions aren't helpful anymore. TRPG I've never heard of. All the old CRPGs used to be turn based, so I always just put those in that category.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

I think that CRPG and JRPG are so old that they mean different things now. The original definitions aren't helpful anymore. TRPG I've never heard of. All the old CRPGs used to be turn based, so I always just put those in that category.

It does depend on whatever age you got into things. CRPG just meant Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale to me for the longest time, but I understand that Computer Role Playing Game meant something long before those games were out. JRPG's I havent played one since probably Final Fantasy 10 so I dont know what mechanics or style really define a modern one.

TRPG we talked about here at some point. Steam just has them as Tactical RPG's but then a lot of those are just tactics games

I know I waffled on a bit earlier but I do think Elden Ring is an RPG at this point. I wouldnt have said the same for Dark Souls or the other Souls like games before it. Not that it matters to the quality of the game as per OP anyway.

 

[ZedClampet]

I know I waffled on a bit earlier but I do think Elden Ring is an RPG at this point. I wouldnt have said the same for Dark Souls or the other Souls like games before it. Not that it matters to the quality of the game as per OP anyway.

Ah, I just assumed it was essentially the same as the Dark Souls series. I really need to open up the wallet and buy that game some day. I got the Dark Souls games really cheap, though, and I'm hoping for the same with Elden Ring, but it's been so popular that I've probably got a long wait ahead of me. The thing is I really need two copies because Guido wants to play it, and I'd feel bad if I just bought it for me. Who knows? Maybe the Summer Sale will work out.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

It is and it isnt the same, theres quite a bit to it now. If Skyrim is classed as an RPG, then Elden Ring has to be IMO.

Dunno, I really love the way those games feel to play so I'm massively biased.

 

[Pifanjr]

The Dark Souls series are classified as action-RPGs on Wikipedia, as are Elden Ring and Bloodborne. Though Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice is classified as an action-adventure.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

The Dark Souls series are classified as action-RPGs on Wikipedia, as are Elden Ring and Bloodborne. Though Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice is classified as an action-adventure.

There are definitely RPG elements. Apparently Demons Souls was marketed as an action RPG too.

 

[Sarafan]

It's hard to make a precise definition of what exactly is RPG. I prefer sticking to its name: Role-Playing Game. So a particular title is an RPG fully, if it fulfills this primary condition. This means the possibility to play a selected role in the story of the game and in character creation. Most commonly this is done by providing different dialogue options to the player and a highly developed character creation and progression system.

Elden Ring provides the latter, but skimps on the first, so it's quite far from being fully an RPG game. Of course it has many elements of this genre, so it's not a mistake if someone tags it as an RPG, but there are other labels required as well. There are many games which incorporate different genres. In fact they're more common these days than hardcore RPGs, but the true core of this genre remains constant.

 

[Zloth]

An actor in a play has no control over the character's choices, other than picking a tone of voice. Aren't they playing a role? I ask because a lot of JRPGs give you no control over the character's choices, either, or really what they look like beyond the choice of armor.

Really, though, as I've said often before, the term is just about useless now. Doom Eternal has 5 of the 8 points @mainer listed out! I think at this point, deciding whether a game is an RPG or not is more a question of whether the marketing department thinks they should associate the game with the term or not.

 

[AshishK]

To me, just being able to level up a character and pick a skill or two doesn't make a game an RPG. I like to have character customization (appearance, background, etc) and to make interesting choices all throughout the game.

For me, from what I know of Elden Ring (I haven't played it yet), it doesn't really meet my personal definition of an RPG, but neither does Call of the Wild (at least not the beginning of the game, which is all I played). I don't think this makes the games better or worse. They just don't fit into that category for me.

Your thoughts?

RPG stands for Role-Playing Game, a genre of video games where the player takes on the role of a character in a fictional world and makes decisions that impact the story and character's development.
Some of the key features that make a game an RPG include:

1. Character development: RPGs typically feature a system where the player's character gains experience points and levels up, improving their skills and abilities over time.
2. Story-driven gameplay: RPGs often have a strong emphasis on storytelling and narrative, with the player's decisions affecting the course of the game's plot.
3. Open world or non-linear gameplay: Many RPGs allow players to explore a vast world and engage in quests or missions in any order they choose.
4. Choice and consequence: RPGs often provide players with a range of choices in how they approach gameplay, with decisions having consequences that impact the game's story or world.

As for Elden Ring and other games by From Software, they are often considered RPGs because they have many of the defining features of the genre. Elden Ring is an upcoming action role-playing game, featuring character customization, an open world, a strong narrative, and choice and consequence gameplay. Other From Software games, such as the Dark Souls series and Bloodborne, are also commonly considered RPGs because of their focus on character development, story-driven gameplay, and player choice.

 

[Colif]

Elden Ring is an upcoming action role-playing game,

upcoming? its been out over a year now...

 

[Brian Boru]

upcoming? its been out over a year now...

ChatGPT's knowledge base cuts off in 2021. Shh, don't tell 'em

 

[Slasken]

A little necro, but I think the lines between RPG and Adventure have become really blurred.

I think that for a game to be a role playing game, you have to make choices, and not just about which skills you level up. You have to make choices that affect the world or story to some degree. Sidequests, good story and experience points to modify your character is not enough to make an RPG.

Yup, totally aware that a lot of people won't agree with this 😂

 

[Zloth]

aflahtech - <facepalm>​

I think that for a game to be a role playing game, you have to make choices, and not just about which skills you level up. You have to make choices that affect the world or story to some degree. Sidequests, good story and experience points to modify your character is not enough to make an RPG.

So, Ultima 1, 2, and 3 (at least) are not RPGs?

 

[Slasken]

So, Ultima 1, 2, and 3 (at least) are not RPGs?

I have never tried them, but what might have been considered OK to be called a CRPG back then might not be considered OK to be called a CRPG now.

Making choices that affect the story or world is a big part of the word, "role", in my opinion.

 

[VillainousVelKoz]

Could it be looked at through a spectrum, going from non-RPGs to full RPGs? If we use mainer's post as a reference, and that's a pretty comprehensive list, we could start to describe games which incorporate all those features as being "full RPGs", but I agree that it's rare to find games with a combination of all these elements.

With that said, I personally do not consider a game with only a leveling up or crafting system as an RPG. So confusing, I know, but I would say that a standard example of a game of this genre is one where you get to customise a character and determine the narrative path. At least that's what I expect from it.

 

[Hveðrungr]

For me it's about player influence over several interlocking domains:

1. Can I influence my character's stats (equipment, armour, crafting, etc)? [Personal Mechanical]
2. Can I influence my character's background (appearance, race, history, etc)? [Personal Narrative]
3. Can I influence how to resolve situations (combat, stealth, charm, etc)? [Mission Mechanical]
4. Can I influence how situations resolve (good vs bad outcome, rewards, etc)? [Mission Narrative]
5. Can I influence how the game is concluded (non-linearity, open world, etc) [World Mechanical]
6. Can I influence how the conclusion impacts the gameworld (changes in-game, consequences for choices, etc) [World Narrative]

Games are RPGs to the extent that they meet these criteria. An RPG doesn't have to meet all of these criteria for us to consider it an RPG, at least not fully. For example, some RPGs don't grant much influence over character background, or have a linear world path, or violate the other criteria in some way. But this to me is the core of the definition of an RPG. As games meet fewer and fewer of these criteria there will be more and more dissent from the idea that they are RPGs as opposed to some other genre (often action-adventures or visual novels).

This also means that even if we can agree on this definition, we cannot ever come to a firm conclusion as to where the boundary lies, because everyone will have a different comfort level with not meeting these criteria. But that's okay and doesn't mean that RPGs don't exist or are meaningless, it just means that we need to be comfortable with ambiguity for edge cases on the spectrum. Indeed we already have descriptions for some of these groups of edge cases, such as action-RPG for games that are somewhere between action-adventures and RPGs.

 

[Zloth]

OK, let's put Final Fantasy 7 to the test on that list. That's widely considered one of the best JRPGs of all time. (And other FF games would score similarly, I believe.)

1. Yes. There's a wide variety of equipment that lets you influence character stats a lot.
2. Nope. Well, you can determine each character's name, but that's it. (The remake won't even let you do that.)
3. Nope.
4. I can only think of two instances of that. Neither have a lasting impact. (I had no idea one of them even existed until I read a walk-through.)
5. Nope.
6. Nope.

One for six is pretty bad. I'm not so sure the old Ultima games would fare much better. "RPG" can mean whatever we want, but those are some big names getting reclassified.

I think what I really want is to be able to search by what I'm likely to encounter in a game. Take all those factors people are listing, add in more, maybe have some like "modern graphics" that change over the years, explain them all to anyone who cares to read the definitions, then let us have at it. A "genre" just becomes a set of search factors people like to use. If you want to find games set in a medieval fantasy world with rich stories but no classes or skill choices, you can find them without sifting through screen after screen of RPGs.

Perhaps AI searches would be able to pull that kind of search off by reading through reviews and reactions to games?

 

[Pifanjr]

OK, let's put Final Fantasy 7 to the test on that list. That's widely considered one of the best JRPGs of all time. (And other FF games would score similarly, I believe.)

1. Yes. There's a wide variety of equipment that lets you influence character stats a lot.
2. Nope. Well, you can determine each character's name, but that's it. (The remake won't even let you do that.)
3. Nope.
4. I can only think of two instances of that. Neither have a lasting impact. (I had no idea one of them even existed until I read a walk-through.)
5. Nope.
6. Nope.

One for six is pretty bad. I'm not so sure the old Ultima games would fare much better. "RPG" can mean whatever we want, but those are some big names getting reclassified.

I think what I really want is to be able to search by what I'm likely to encounter in a game. Take all those factors people are listing, add in more, maybe have some like "modern graphics" that change over the years, explain them all to anyone who cares to read the definitions, then let us have at it. A "genre" just becomes a set of search factors people like to use. If you want to find games set in a medieval fantasy world with rich stories but no classes or skill choices, you can find them without sifting through screen after screen of RPGs.

Perhaps AI searches would be able to pull that kind of search off by reading through reviews and reactions to games?

JRPGs are generally put into their own category within RPGs for a reason. For example, on Steam under the Categories > Genres menu, RPGs are divided into Action, Adventure, JRPG, Party-Based, Rogue-Like, Strategy and Turn-Based. JRPGs typically have very little in common with other RPGs. Even the one point they do score, for letting you influence character stats, is typically shallower than in most RPGs. There's often no or very limited ability to make different builds and most equipment is just a straight upgrade of the previous equipment.

I think western RPGs typically try to emulate table-top RPGs. However, since table-top RPGs were based on wargames, what people think of when thinking of RPGs involves a lot of mechanics from old table-top wargames. In fact, I think games without those mechanics typically aren't described as RPGs, even if they do include other points from that list. For example, some visual novels include point 4, 5 and 6, but you wouldn't call them RPGs.

I'm not sure if every game that includes the first point is a RPG, even if they don't include any other points, but JRPGs aren't the only ones that only include the first point. ARPGs can do that too. I would say that something like Titan Quest or Torchlight for example don't include any other points than the first either.

 

[Hveðrungr]

JRPGs are generally put into their own category within RPGs for a reason.

Yeah, no disrespect to JRPGs—they're not my favourite but I've played a few in my time—but I don't consider them to be RPGs and I don't think that opinion is very controversial. That doesn't make them bad, it just makes them a different thing.

As you say, it's true genealogically too, as well as mechanically. RPGs as we use the term come from Western tabletop RPGs like D&D. Those tabletop RPGs are all about that open choice-led experience. JRPGs have a different genealogy that doesn't include that kind of free-wheeling dungeonmaster-led experience.

What this is like is the word “dragon”. I could say that dragons should have scales and breathe fire and live in mountains where they hoard gold. Someone else could reply, “Oh, but Japanese dragons are often furry and live in rivers and don't traditionally breathe fire”. To which the answer is that yes, the Japanese entities we describe as “dragons” are different, but really that's because we only use the western term “dragon” for them out of laziness and cultural insensitivity. Really we should just call them “ryu” (like Ryūichi Naruhodō, the Japanese name for Phoenix Wright!) but since that ship has sailed we can at least accept that western dragons and Japanese dragons aren't the same thing even though we happen to use the same word for them by historical accident. And the same goes for western RPGs and J(apanese )RPGs.