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What do You think about level scaling?
- Thread starter Adeptus
- Start date
Colif
On a Journey
Sacred 2 did it pretty good. What it had was something called survival bonus. The longer you stayed alive, the more chance you had of getting better drops. The main reason for this being all the monsters around you were a higher level than you. If you died, they would suddenly be your level and you wouldn't get as good items. There were ways to counter their higher levels, game was built around the bonus after all.
But Diablo 4 does it so you never feel over powered, you never felt stronger than the monsters around you. They did change it to the other degree after you hit 66. They stopped levelling and until you went int the 4th difficulty they would always be 5 lvls below you and no fun to fight.
But Diablo 4 does it so you never feel over powered, you never felt stronger than the monsters around you. They did change it to the other degree after you hit 66. They stopped levelling and until you went int the 4th difficulty they would always be 5 lvls below you and no fun to fight.
I understand what you mean, but I think level scaling is done to keep the challenge even throughout your playthrough. It does feel good to get more powerful, but then the game can become too easy. Games like Dark Souls does it well where different areas have different level monsters, so it encourages you to get more powerful before tackling much harder areas.
"Games like Dark Souls does it well where different areas have different level monsters, so it encourages you to get more powerful before tackling much harder areas"
And I prefer this solution much more than level scaling.
But of course, the best solution is to make level scaling optional.
And I prefer this solution much more than level scaling.
But of course, the best solution is to make level scaling optional.
That's how Far Cry New Dawn does it—and other FPS too, but ND makes it a required mechanic. The later areas still have low-level enemies—but more of 'em—so you can enjoy mowing them down if you like, before taking on the tough guys.
Meet a Level 3 cougar while your weapons are still Level 1, and good night.
RTS has always done this too, gradually increasing your and enemy power and capabilities as you progress thru missions. It's a good way of handling learning curves.
Have you noticed if visual novels use longer words in later chapters?
Options are a Good Thing!
I like level scaling in open world games. Especially in Bethesda games there's so much content that it's impossible to have static levels without either making leveling super slow or having the player being overleveled for over half the content in the game.
I don't understand the argument of "not feeling stronger because enemies get stronger". Almost every game gives you progressively stronger enemies over the course of the game. I don't think it's better when those increases are static and you're forced to grind levels if you're not a high enough level to defeat them.
In my experience, both level scaling and static levels can be done well or can be done badly.
I don't understand the argument of "not feeling stronger because enemies get stronger". Almost every game gives you progressively stronger enemies over the course of the game. I don't think it's better when those increases are static and you're forced to grind levels if you're not a high enough level to defeat them.
In my experience, both level scaling and static levels can be done well or can be done badly.
Its all about balance to me. Level scaling is fine if at least the game makes the loot grind good enough to feel more powerful at that point. Its annoying to be stuck getting crap loot to keep recycling instead of finding something that would give you the sense of being powerful.
This also goes for how much damage skills/abilities do for you as you level too. If one or two skills of 1 build are crap and underpowered, it wont matter the level scaling because itll always be underwhelming as you level.
My example here comes from Diablo 4. 1 Druid build i could run through dungeons 20 levels higher than mine, change that to a different build with different abilities (assuming the gear is there, which it was) and i could barely finish one 1-2 ahead of me.
This also goes for how much damage skills/abilities do for you as you level too. If one or two skills of 1 build are crap and underpowered, it wont matter the level scaling because itll always be underwhelming as you level.
My example here comes from Diablo 4. 1 Druid build i could run through dungeons 20 levels higher than mine, change that to a different build with different abilities (assuming the gear is there, which it was) and i could barely finish one 1-2 ahead of me.
Zed Clampet
Community Contributor
I agree 100 percent. In fact, in the game Remnant 2, you level up by improving your weapons, and we decided not to bother. We didn't level up a single weapon and were still at around the starting level when we defeated the final boss.
There is zero point to leveling if everything else just levels with you. It's utter gaming nonsense.
This was all started by Atari, by the way, so this has been going on since the beginning of video games. But with Atari, it just scaled the enemies to your skills on the fly, which is even worse.
An example of this is Forza Horizon, where the AI cars speed up or slow down depending on how you are driving. Crash? No worries, they'll wait for you. Drive incredibly well? No worries, they'll be right there with you. What's even the point?
So are there no actual fixed difficulty settings? If not, that sucks.
The dynamic variability you mention would be fine if it was an additional diff setting, eg cool if you always want a close race.
Zed Clampet
Community Contributor
There are fixed settings.
I don't always want a close race. I want an honest one. If I win or lose, it's on me. For some of us, it just makes the races feel pointless. Why race for 10 minutes when only the last 10 seconds actually count?
Zloth
Community Contributor
What's the point of playing any more if you've gotten stronger? Oh, I see, you can go after stronger enemies.
But level scaling can do the exact same thing, if it's good level scaling. Good level scaling will actually change what you are facing based on your level. At low levels, the spawn will be orcs. Increase the levels and they become ogres, then hill giants, then hill giants that ran into a VERY hungry vampire some years ago, and so on. As the levels go up, your skills change AND the enemies gain some new tactics, too.
Bad level scaling can happen, too. Marvel's Midnight Suns did that. There are very few enemy types in that game. To keep them challenging, their levels scale up with your characters. It undermines the entire levelling system, making it outright pointless to gain levels. (Luckily, while the enemy variety is terrible, there's a huge variety of characters on your side that are constantly gaining and refining powers, so the battles never got stale for me.)
Of course, there are plenty of pitfalls with static enemies, too. For instance, in Divinity: Original Sin, I went the wrong way, straying from the Golden Path. I hit a big difficulty spike, but I was able to get through it... then found the other place that I was supposed to go (and still need to play through). So, I ended up with really rough area followed by a boring cake run. That wouldn't have happened with scaling enemies.
Colif
On a Journey
this is the type topic is about. The no sense of achievement kind. Whats the point of levelling kind.
Static enemies teaches you where you shouldn't be. Sure, can design world map so people won't meet things over their levels, or do what Wow used to do (before changes in last 10 years) and have a high lvl area right next to a low lvl one. I recall one was linked to the Undercity map but I still resist looking at wow 15 years after the last time I played it.
Zed Clampet
Community Contributor
Is it really level scaling if you are constantly coming across new enemies that just happen to be tougher? The real question is can you backtrack and dominate early levels.
Zloth
Community Contributor
Yeah, with full level scaling (and respawning), if you go back to the start where you faced that kobold, you'll find a demon prince.
Zed Clampet
Community Contributor
Hmm. I don't really play many games where level scaling comes in to play. Definitely never played one where they changed up the mobs on the early levels after you've leveled. I'd actually be somewhat okay with that. I just don't want to go back and find god-tier kobolds.
Zloth
Community Contributor
It'd be a rare thing to see. If the game doesn't re-spawn enemies, you won't see it. Or the game won't be quite that open world, so you can't go back that far. Or the game will put limits on the scaling.
Elder Scrolls V: Oblivion is the only example that comes to mind.
Zed Clampet
Community Contributor
The real definition of level scaling is that in an open world game you can go anywhere you want, whenever you want, and the enemies will be about the same level as you.
If any of that doesn't apply to a game, then there's no level scaling.
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In fact, it is a very complex system to comply with all these rules. But you are right, if something goes wrong, the game will not carry such emotions. But those who manage to do so realize their importance. Is not it?
Personally i prefer to not have difficulty autoscaling or at the very least a passive/mild form of it just to spice things up but still have some sort of sense of progression.
Like already mentioned, the key reason for it is a sense of progression and there is a consistent escalation in difficulty as opposed to just being a uphill battle all the time. But its how its implemented and the risk and reward that comes from it. oblivion immediately springs to mind as absolutely horrible implementation - start off fighting your usual bandits etc and by max level the world is roaming with deadly elementals, daedroths etc and its probably one of the main reasons why i never levelled up. i could handle the low level stuff, but higher levels enemies became damage sponges and the higher attacks made things stupid.
Games that implement it well or better that quickly comes to mind is Path of exile during the mapping. As you make mile stones defeating key end game bosses, you're rewarded with stones that you can slot into your atlas that effectively upgrades the tiers of the map. beat enough of the bosses and all your maps become high tier and you're swimming in riches. But even here the earlier maps are still slightly lower level compared to the original late game maps.
But POE is also where Autoscaling by a good thing. the enemies stop at lvl85 and they're still no push over but once you hit level 90+ the exp gain is practically glacial and getting to lvl 100 is a trial in itself. Choke and you lost 10% of your exp each time and its horrible. Especially if you gambled on a map and its got damage reflect in it.
Like already mentioned, the key reason for it is a sense of progression and there is a consistent escalation in difficulty as opposed to just being a uphill battle all the time. But its how its implemented and the risk and reward that comes from it. oblivion immediately springs to mind as absolutely horrible implementation - start off fighting your usual bandits etc and by max level the world is roaming with deadly elementals, daedroths etc and its probably one of the main reasons why i never levelled up. i could handle the low level stuff, but higher levels enemies became damage sponges and the higher attacks made things stupid.
Games that implement it well or better that quickly comes to mind is Path of exile during the mapping. As you make mile stones defeating key end game bosses, you're rewarded with stones that you can slot into your atlas that effectively upgrades the tiers of the map. beat enough of the bosses and all your maps become high tier and you're swimming in riches. But even here the earlier maps are still slightly lower level compared to the original late game maps.
But POE is also where Autoscaling by a good thing. the enemies stop at lvl85 and they're still no push over but once you hit level 90+ the exp gain is practically glacial and getting to lvl 100 is a trial in itself. Choke and you lost 10% of your exp each time and its horrible. Especially if you gambled on a map and its got damage reflect in it.
Inspireless Llama
Community Contributor
When it comes to scaling, I keep thinking about 3 games: one did scaling, and it created a bug that was really annoying. The other one did scaling, but not in a very noticable way. The last game does scaling in what I think is the best way.
When I played the Witcher, I had scaling on. That kept the challenge up, for sure, but at some point I ran into a quest where I had to survive an attack from rats in the sewers. That quest literally wasn't doable because the rats were the same level as me rather than the level 1 they were supposed to be. I'm not sure if that counts as bad scaling, but as soon as it breaks the game, I prefer not to scale. I also agree with OP, what's hte point of achievement if it doesn't get easier to beat enemies?
The second game I think about when scaling is TES5: Skyrim over Oblivion. I've modded that game till it broke, but I'm pretty sure it's vanilla that when you grow stronger, more of the draugr would turn into restless draugr, and then up a notch more. I'm not too sure about this though, it's also possible the strenght of the draugr was just based on dungeon level.
I do find Skyrim a bit confusing, because it's technically open world, and you can go anywhere from very early on, but there certainly are areas where the enemy outscale you and you have to increase your level in order to fight them (especially giants come to mind here).
The last game I think about when scaling, and I think that this is a very interesting one, is Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War. The enemies in the games itself don't scale, the very first orc you fight is just as strong as the last one, but captains keep getting stronger during the game, based on your actions, and your deaths.
Personally I found Shadow of Mordor alot of fun because all the skills you get, which makes fightinng later on more of a show rather than a challenge, but the fact that you missed a challenge (other than the occasional strong Captain) could make the game boring.
Out of those 3 games, I enjoy the scaling in Shadow of Mordor and War the most, mostly because you do get an achievement by getting stronger and killing those low ranking orcs easier and easier. It also has the most immersive way of scaling "bosses". Each time a captain kills another captain, or kills you, they gain strenght, therefore scaling.
When I played the Witcher, I had scaling on. That kept the challenge up, for sure, but at some point I ran into a quest where I had to survive an attack from rats in the sewers. That quest literally wasn't doable because the rats were the same level as me rather than the level 1 they were supposed to be. I'm not sure if that counts as bad scaling, but as soon as it breaks the game, I prefer not to scale. I also agree with OP, what's hte point of achievement if it doesn't get easier to beat enemies?
The second game I think about when scaling is TES5: Skyrim over Oblivion. I've modded that game till it broke, but I'm pretty sure it's vanilla that when you grow stronger, more of the draugr would turn into restless draugr, and then up a notch more. I'm not too sure about this though, it's also possible the strenght of the draugr was just based on dungeon level.
I do find Skyrim a bit confusing, because it's technically open world, and you can go anywhere from very early on, but there certainly are areas where the enemy outscale you and you have to increase your level in order to fight them (especially giants come to mind here).
The last game I think about when scaling, and I think that this is a very interesting one, is Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War. The enemies in the games itself don't scale, the very first orc you fight is just as strong as the last one, but captains keep getting stronger during the game, based on your actions, and your deaths.
Personally I found Shadow of Mordor alot of fun because all the skills you get, which makes fightinng later on more of a show rather than a challenge, but the fact that you missed a challenge (other than the occasional strong Captain) could make the game boring.
Out of those 3 games, I enjoy the scaling in Shadow of Mordor and War the most, mostly because you do get an achievement by getting stronger and killing those low ranking orcs easier and easier. It also has the most immersive way of scaling "bosses". Each time a captain kills another captain, or kills you, they gain strenght, therefore scaling.
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