Should a Class action take place to make MS at least give security updates to older OS's?

[JCgames]

Title kinda says it all. With all the cyber attack stuff going on and so many people just running out of date stuff it got me thinking if MS is actually obligated to at least provide security patches to their old OS software.

I realize this has never gone to the supreme court or what ever, but i also don't even know if it's been actually even litigated at any level. Computers all over the world from mom and pop stores to older govs can be using out of date stuff because it can be such a large investment to update. But the simple fact is often older hardware can't support the updates anyway. People have this machine and software they bought 10-15-25+ year ago and suddenly it's now not safe forcing you to go buy something new, when the old with a security update would work just fine.

I realize things can't go on indefinatly, but it really got me thinking when win 10, which is a very fine OS and even win 7 which isn't all that old is suddenly to old to be secure. This is really bugging me.. What about you?

 

[XoRn]

I'm way out of my depth here both in the software engineering and legal sense but I suspect a lawsuit would fail. Whether or not that's right or wrong I don't know, and I'm also not sure on how feasible it is for M$. I suppose it depends on the window of support you want. Windows XP got some security patches as late as 2019, so it feels like they are giving folks lots of time to upgrade as is.

On the hardware thing, I know I'm working from a privileged position but it also feels like if getting your bushiness's information infrastructure off of decades old hardware isn't a top priority then you're acknowledging the risks that that decision comes with.

 

[Brian Boru]

What about you?

Doesn't bug me at all. It might if a MS security update could offer strong protection, but much/most of the issues with old machines will be 3rd-party apps & drivers which MS can't & shouldn't mess with.

Remember all those Windows security problems MS used to get roasted over? Around 90% of those had a very simple solution, which was for users to run Windows Update. So your lawsuit would be asking for something which the affected/infected wouldn't use anyway.

Next problem is we all agreed to a limited support period when we agreed to the terms when installing Windows. Every MS product has a defined lifecycle, which is spelled out in pages linked from here:

Search Product and Services Lifecycle Information - Microsoft Lifecycle

Note Export lifecycle information from the Lifecycle Export page. Microsoft Lifecycle provides consistent and predictable guidelines for support throughout the life of a product, helping customers manage their IT investments and environments while strategically planning for the future. Search...

docs.microsoft.com

Finally, it's just a commercial no-go. Apple has always had shorter support cycles, and Ford has no responsibility if you drive your banger until the wheel comes off.

this has never gone to the supreme court

I can't see that happening, I don't see a constitutional issue involved.

 

[Frindis]

While I do find it a bit strange that they are only providing updates for W10 until 2022, the question I would ask is if this is needed because of how the technology advances and a way for Microsoft the be sure that their system will be able to handle the security threats and not getting sued for any major negligence on their part. How to fairly balance this around the world I think would be impossible. Some will have problems updating their system and perhaps have to use a cheaper solution (Linux as an example) or with help from the government/commune to assist.

 

[Colif]

They support software for 10 years.
win 10 was released June 2015, so its end of life is 2025 and is supported until then.

We had assumed it would keep going but they wanted to hype up windows again as 10 was so stable and reliable that it was sort of just there...
So Win 11 is win 10 with a makeup job and will exist until 2031 I guess.

they eol their previous os just before announcing new so people know what to get next.

win 10 could run on anything as they had people scattered over 7 & 8 and that is annoying for updating as you have to do multiple. So they made a OS anything can run... and most of those are now on 10.

Win 11 seems to be the OS for your NEXT PC, not current... although that depends how current your PC is, many recent ones are acceptable. But PC from 5 years or more ago? not so much. They now only have to support two OS and everyone is mostly on the same old one. and will likely upgrade to a PC that can run win 11 eventually

Hardware makers don't want to keep making drivers for their old stuff. That is most of the problem, and was in win 10 too. How drivers are formatted has changed in the last 15 years so old drivers won't work on new windows. Windows gets the blame for hardware makers not supporting stuff as long as Windows will

 

[Brian Boru]

Win 11 seems to be the OS for your NEXT PC, not current

Yes, that's the key point. I'll be on Win10 until my next build, whenever hardware prices return from on high.

I won't be surprised either if Win10 EoL gets extended a couple of years, like they did with Win7.

 

[Colif]

It depends how old current is, if its last 4 years it should pass the test although you will need to turn Trusted Platform Module on in your bios. I would tell you where but every bios is different which is always fun. Most CPU in last 4 years have a firmware TPM built into the CPU, it just needs to be turned on to pass test

My pc gave me this

until I went into BIOS and turned it on
Now I get

it also shows under CPU in device manager

seems you also need to have secure boot on

test isn't perfect, people who know they pass all the requirements are still failing test. We half expect all these requirements to go away before launch

 

[Zloth]

Doesn't EXACTLY bug me, but there's something sitting close by that reeks. The problem being:

Next problem is we all agreed to a limited support period when we agreed to the terms when installing Windows. Every MS product has a defined lifecycle, which is spelled out in pages linked from here:

For all intents and purposes, many people MUST agree to this. Linux and the Mac OS are out there, but they've got a tiny, tiny share of the market. What's more, I think that's actually best for the market. If every program that came out had to support 3 or 4 major operating systems, I'm afraid things would be pretty bad.

The mobile devices are managing it with two (iOS & Android) but I'm not so sure that's ideal. Maybe it would be possible to do some sort of world wide "OS API"? Something to make it possible to write programs and expect them to run reasonably well on lots of operating systems, as long as they are following the API.

Or would that result in the mess we've currently got with browsers? Ugh. Lots to think about here.

 

[Colif]

win 11 lets you run android apps on the desktop

 

[Colif]

Microsoft might not remove need for TPM

Windows 11 enables security by design from the chip to the cloud | Microsoft Security Blog

Over the last year, PCs have kept us connected to family, friends, and enabled businesses to continue to run. This new hybrid work paradigm has got us thinking about how we will continue to deliver the best possible quality, experience, and security for the more than 1 billion people who use...

www.microsoft.com

lots of computers won't be getting win 11.

 

[Zloth]

Some computers could get TPM installed. Sometimes the motherboard will have a spot for it, even if it wasn't included originally.

I wonder what it is Microsoft is putting in that needs this chip? Some sort of super-bitlocker, maybe? Anti-ransomware?

 

[Colif]

they have been telling oem that they needed to have TPM in PC since win 10 was announced. I assume that includes motherboard makers.

So its not new, its just something everyone else ignored until win 11 comes along and says, Guys... remember that thing i mentioned, yeah, its live now. You had 5 years to get ready. its not like we didn't tell you.

the people they didn't tell were the consumers but then they didn't tell us about win 11 until last week. They don't tell people when next version is coming, probably very good reasons for that. I can guess that next OS will be in 2026/27 though, going from their previous record of releases.

new OS every 5 years, support it for 10, gives crossover for users to update hardware in that time.

People complain but who really wants to use the same computer for 10 years? hardware changes in that time mean you normally have to upgrade something in 10 years. Very few people choose to do that intentionally.

2 normally found types of tpm, Discrete which is the chip, and Firmware TPM which is built into the last 4 Intel cpu family and last 3 AMD CPU
Some guy made this post about the differences - https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/windows-11-info-thread.3710026/#post-22363004 (he looks familair)

I have read new WIn 11 users won't have passwords, they either use Windows Hello or PIN. Both of those use TPM (although PIN can be run without TPM, I did it for about 5 months)

Also seems you need to have PC set up in UEFI boot and have secure boot on. Some people are being told they can't have win 11 as pc isn't in GPT. That is easy fix. Tool isn't user friendly

 

[Brian Boru]

check out steam useage charts and see the numbers still on XP. win 10 users are the minority

Where did you see that? Win XP doesn't get a mention, Win10 is 93% of users:

Steam Hardware & Software Survey

Older municipal stuff is still using stuff from the 80's and early 90's. I have friends that work in this sorta stuff and it's a real issue

I wonder how long that'll remain legal. Governments may finally be waking up to the fact it's now the 21st century, and there are potentially very serious threats to municipal infrastructure which they should be duty bound to safeguard.

5 years is a total joke

Are you talking about Apple's OS, or something else? Windows supports free for 10 years, and you can buy longer-term support when there's a demand for it—eg Win7 ESU to end 2022, Win10 2019 LTSC to 2029.

There is money for this to be done

I'm pretty certain this isn't a money problem, but I'm not going to research it in depth. Problem is very likely hardware and software.

guy that went all the way to the supreme court over making a cake

Sure, it concerned the constitutional issue of freedom of religion.
I doubt someone can make a constitutional issue out of product support.

 

[DSzymborski]

This is just wrong. While hard core PC gamers won't the vast majority of comps, especially those that work for business do. You set up an office/system and you use it for 20+ years. You aren't dumping your entire network every few years when the old outside of security is working just fine. Hell i'm a gamer and i push systems 6-7 years, and still using my 2008 build with little issues.

Even then just check out steam useage charts and see the numbers still on XP. win 10 users are the minority.

Nobody crowned me the Emperor of Numbers, but that sure looks like a majority to me if I remember how percentages work, and I think I do.

 

[Zloth]

Oooooooh! Will that TPM requirement mean that there will be no 32-bit Windows 11??

 

[Colif]

current installers only have 64bit so maybe

The way they are pushing secure boot, there are indications it will only install on GPT drives in UEFI Boot method as well, so if you updated from win 7 and haven't clean installed windows 10 yet, and your motherboard supports all the right modes, you can either wait till 11 is out and clean install it (smartest idea) or clean install win 10 in UEFI boot method - simplest way is clean install as if motherboard supports EUFI boot then Win 10 will install itself as GPT as you don't need to think about it

there is a 3rd choice as well - https://it-infrastructure.solutions/how-to-switch-from-legacy-to-uefi-boot-mode-mbr2gpt-convertion/

but i wouldn't do anything until win 11 is actually out.


Explanation of terms:
UEFI - Unified Extensible Firmware Interface
If your PC is less than 11 years old, you have a UEFI bios now
In 2006 or so Intel decided the bios as it was at time was too limited and needed to be replaced so that it supported newer technologies as they were invented
By about 2009 a consortium of hardware makers had combined to create UEFI standard

Old bios were limited, they didn't know what a mouse was for, so everything was keyboard driven
they weren't expandable, everything had to fit in a small amount of memory
they only supported Master Boot Record (MBR) which can only have 4 partitions per drive (there are tricks to get around this) and max drive size is 2.2 tb

UEFI bios overcame all the limitations of legacy bios (as it came to be called)
it supports mouse, it has a GUI so it looks better than previous bios could
Its expandable, it can be added to to grow as new hardware is created. Such as NVME drives
UEFI supports MBR & GPT Drives

GPT = GUID Partition Table
GUID = Global Unique ID = Every GPT drive on earth has a unique ID
GPT drives can have a max of 255 partitions on them
Max size of a GPT drive/partition is 18.8 Million TB

copies explanation to a word document as sick of typing that out

Win 10 preferred GPT, 5 years later it makes sense that WIn 11 insists now. Most computers should have UEFI boot support by now, 11 years after it was introduced.