September 2023 PCG Article Links and Discussion

[ZedClampet]

Disclaimer: Eye no gnawting—merely read gurus

By that time—late 20s?—there may not be much bracing required.

♣ In the article, a chip design guru is quoted:
"According to Keller, modern Arm and x86 core designs are actually very similar deep down"

♦ Windows currently works on both x64 and Arm

♥ There's a good chance that there'll be a software layer between app/program code and the hardware which will translate as required on the fly, or maybe do some quick temp 'compile' for your work/game session

♠ AI by then should be able to help with previous point

Speculation: does it have to be either/or? Maybe both chips will be in the machine.

I'm not sure why you would want both. By then, gaming PC's will probably have an optional dedicated AI processor, so you'd be looking at 4 processors, 1 of which would be redundant, so it would just be wasting money. But Arm chips are cheaper than x86, so you could go with the Arm and add on your AI chip.

But of course, the AI processor will be strictly optional because Microsoft and Sony have to sell consoles for around $500 (which is why they need a cheaper Arm chip), so the AI will just borrow the GPU and make the games practically unplayable, kind of like ray tracing does now.

(Notes: No one will be more shocked than I am if any of the above turns out to be correct )

 

[Brian Boru]

No one will be more shocked than I am if any of the above turns out to be correct

Yeah, remember in ~2000 Bill Gates jumping up and down—figuratively, not Steve Ballmering—about how wonderful tablets were going to be? Idiot

There's also the issue of how much processing will be cloud-only by then. One of the great wastes in tech is every machine needing all the oomph to get stuff done. Once servers and bandwidth and down/upload speeds can handle it all, it'll become like on-demand TV.

So general users will only need I/O hardware—oh, and RGB to differentiate brands!

PSA: above is almost definitely correct—well, as correct as Zed's anyway

 

[ZedClampet]

Yeah, remember in ~2000 Bill Gates jumping up and down—figuratively, not Steve Ballmering—about how wonderful tablets were going to be? Idiot

There's also the issue of how much processing will be cloud-only by then. One of the great wastes in tech is every machine needing all the oomph to get stuff done. Once servers and bandwidth and down/upload speeds can handle it all, it'll become like on-demand TV.

So general users will only need I/O hardware—oh, and RGB to differentiate brands!

PSA: above is almost definitely correct—well, as correct as Zed's anyway

Funny enough when I first typed that I had a line that said AAA games would be entering an era where they would be either streamed or at least online assisted, but I deleted it. The gaming old guard will have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into it.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

I dont know enough about ARM and x86 to comment very seriously, as far as I understand it ARM designs need to have software written especially for the specific processor, whereas x86 understands a lot of different instruction sets including a lot of old and lesser used ones amking them easier to develop for, not to mention more compatible with a lot of older stuff.

But for streaming latency is going to be a problem for a lot of people for a long time. 75% of the world doesnt have good internet speeds and probably won't do for 20 years or more. Not sure what the connection is like on Starlink and similar either, so it may not be exactly suited for online gaming. I think local is here for the forseeable future. Consoles might be a different story though.

 

[Brian Boru]

The gaming old guard will have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into it.

Just another Boss fight

Starlink and similar

Prices are very high, but otherwise:
"enjoy gaming, and to be active in a video call without any noticeable lag"

Starlink Speed: How Much Faster Is Elon's Satellite Internet in 2023 vs. 2022?

Living with Starlink: Our tester in Idaho crunches the speed test numbers to show how his satellite service has changed over the last 6 months. (Spoiler: It's become much better.)

www.pcmag.com

First Ever 5G To Space: 14 Mbps Between Smartphone and Satellite Equals Competition For Starlink

AST SpaceMobile completed what it says is the first-ever 5G connection from a standard unmodified smartphone directly to a satellite in low earth orbit.

www.forbes.com

75% of the world doesnt have good internet speeds and probably won't do for 20 years or more

Oh yeah, agree, this is all for the First World.

Never mind internet, huge swathes of the less developed don't have reliable electricity or drinking water. They'll be lucky to have affordable good internet this century.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

Prices are very high, but otherwise:
"enjoy gaming, and to be active in a video call without any noticeable lag"

Starlink Speed: How Much Faster Is Elon's Satellite Internet in 2023 vs. 2022?

Living with Starlink: Our tester in Idaho crunches the speed test numbers to show how his satellite service has changed over the last 6 months. (Spoiler: It's become much better.)

www.pcmag.com

First Ever 5G To Space: 14 Mbps Between Smartphone and Satellite Equals Competition For Starlink

AST SpaceMobile completed what it says is the first-ever 5G connection from a standard unmodified smartphone directly to a satellite in low earth orbit.

www.forbes.com

I heard/read current streaming latency is good enough for single player gaming before, especially with a controller the delay is there, but manageable. Stadia was apparently decent already. Another thing that makes me doubt how fast the take up will be is on PC the most played games by a lot are all MP games. People are already buying 540hz monitors and using ethernet etc to eliminate any kind of latency issues or stuttering. Not sure how many of those people will be too into cloud streaming those games right now or for the next few years at least.

Anyway I'm happy to be one of the last cranks with my ye olde PC box up until the end whatever happens

Oh yeah, agree, this is all for the First World.

Never mind internet, huge swathes of the less developed don't have reliable electricity or drinking water. They'll be lucky to have affordable good internet this century.

Yea, fair point. Internet low down on the list for most, and those who are rich enough anywhere will likely have access anyway if they want it.

 

[Ryzengang]

https://www.pcgamer.com/playing-starfield-made-me-appreciate-cyberpunk-2077-so-much-more/

I don't want to be an ass, but what are these nonsensical articles related to Starfield lately? Low effort content that stokes the flames of outrage and actively worsens discourse on the internet. I don't want to be too harsh but I strongly dislike this kind of content. Same with the whole Baldur's Gate 3 vs Starfield tripe.

 

[Pifanjr]

https://www.pcgamer.com/playing-starfield-made-me-appreciate-cyberpunk-2077-so-much-more/

I don't want to be an ass, but what are these nonsensical articles related to Starfield lately? Low effort content that stokes the flames of outrage and actively worsens discourse on the internet. I don't want to be too harsh but I strongly dislike this kind of content. Same with the whole Baldur's Gate 3 vs Starfield tripe.

I agree, I see very little value in comparing games that are so different. It doesn't help that both articles only focus on how the other game is better than Starfield.

 

[Brian Boru]

Hey, a new Civ-like! Millennia from devs C Prompt, pubbed by Paradox:

Millennia is a new 4X coming with Paradox's backing, but is this Civ-like too Civ-like?

I got a chance to try out the game at this year's Gamescom.

www.pcgamer.com

I strongly dislike this kind of content

There are lots of fads in journo, this is just another.

One of my pet peeves is still going strong too, even in the title of the article above It's still a bad thing to be too like a top-class game!

 

[Zloth]

If you want to be bracing, brace for the new Top 100 list. It's been out in the magazines for some time now, so it should show up on the website pretty soon. Get your "how could they possibly leave out XXXX" posts ready!

P.S. Marvel's Midnight Suns made the list!

P.P.S. I used four X's for a reason.

 

[ZedClampet]

But for streaming latency is going to be a problem for a lot of people for a long time. 75% of the world doesnt have good internet speeds and probably won't do for 20 years or more.

You're thinking like a man of conscience. Probably the overwhelming majority of games are purchased by people in the 25 percent that does have good Internet, so I don't think this will stop anyone because...money. You won't be streaming games for free, after all.

I doubt it will be in this decade, though.

Razer finally just went ahead and started making 'gamer' lamps

Razer has announced a new line of "Gamer Room" lamps, light bulbs, and light strips.

www.pcgamer.com

Razer is teaming up with Lamborghini to make an absurdly expensive and slightly orange gaming laptop

Vroom, vroom.

www.pcgamer.com

That Santa guy is useless. I'm going to send my Santa wishlist to Elon Musk this year.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

You're thinking like a man of conscience. Probably the overwhelming majority of games are purchased by people in the 25 percent that does have good Internet, so I don't think this will stop anyone because...money. You won't be streaming games for free, after all.

I doubt it will be in this decade, though.

Youre right it was a bad point. I do think latency on PC needs working on but theyll probably solve it in the end. To be fair people sacrificed quality for convenience with CRTs vs the early flat screens without most complaining much so theres precedent as long as they get close enough.

Wont stop me building rigs until the bitter end though.

 

[ZedClampet]

I'm so glad I waited nearly 3 years to play Cyberpunk 2077, but I dread the fact that this is our new normal

How did we get here?

www.pcgamer.com

The problem with this article is that there have always been games that were bad at release. The only thing that has changed is that some developers are willing to keep working to make the games better. If that's the "new normal" then I'm all for it.

Also, there's no way CDPR wanted to work on CP2077 for 3 more years, so I'm not worried that they will plan it this way in the future. They could have been half-way through making the next Witcher game by now.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

I'm so glad I waited nearly 3 years to play Cyberpunk 2077, but I dread the fact that this is our new normal

How did we get here?

www.pcgamer.com

The problem with this article is that there have always been games that were bad at release. The only thing that has changed is that some developers are willing to keep working to make the games better. If that's the "new normal" then I'm all for it.

Also, there's no way CDPR wanted to work on CP2077 for 3 more years, so I'm not worried that they will plan it this way in the future. They could have been half-way through making the next Witcher game by now.

The amount of AAA games from big studios that have been coming out in poor condition, it would probably be a huge benefit to a lot of games if they were to come out in EA first for a time. There'd be less scandal if they were part broken, devs/publishers would get some money to be going on with. Whats not to like?

One drawback I suppose is if an early access game didnt get a great reception publishers might lose out on some sales. Then again if they played it right maybe they could scale down on the original vision to cut losses a bit and just get the game out in decent condition.

Could it be more of a problem for marketing? If its a big game maybe they want it to make a splash all at once around a set release date. It didnt seem to be a problem for Baldurs Gate 3, but maybe thats a one off. Larian does have a lot of community good will from players and journalists. Electronic Arts might not get such an easy ride if they released the next Jedi game in early access for 69.99 and it was broken, but they got a lot of stick anyway for releasing the last one in the state it was, so what do they lose?

 

[ZedClampet]

Unity makes big changes to the install fee that pissed off just about every game developer last week

Unity hasn't tossed out its new fee, but it has walked back the most objected-to features.

www.pcgamer.com

Unity fixes their problem, but some developers no longer care.

 

[Brian Boru]

Could it be more of a problem for marketing? If its a big game maybe they want it to make a splash all at once around a set release date

That would be it for AAA, that's been well-proven in all the other entertainment industries. Movies know the lifetime revenue after the first weekend, Amazon algos revolve around the combo of pre-orders and first-day sales, etc.

Even if it could work differently for games, you can bet most of the marketing execs come from other similar industries and must play in the "You can't be fired for buying IBM" situation.

It didnt seem to be a problem for Baldurs Gate 3

Well of course, that's the thing. No way of knowing if BG3 would've done a lot better going the conventional route. Maybe their success will encourage more experimentation, and a different way to market AAA games will slowly evolve.

 

[Brian Boru]

some developers no longer care

Sounds like this is the first time these guys have been exposed to Capitalism

 

[ZedClampet]

The amount of AAA games from big studios that have been coming out in poor condition, it would probably be a huge benefit to a lot of games if they were to come out in EA first for a time. There'd be less scandal if they were part broken, devs/publishers would get some money to be going on with. Whats not to like?

One drawback I suppose is if an early access game didnt get a great reception publishers might lose out on some sales. Then again if they played it right maybe they could scale down on the original vision to cut losses a bit and just get the game out in decent condition.

Could it be more of a problem for marketing? If its a big game maybe they want it to make a splash all at once around a set release date. It didnt seem to be a problem for Baldurs Gate 3, but maybe thats a one off. Larian does have a lot of community good will from players and journalists. Electronic Arts might not get such an easy ride if they released the next Jedi game in early access for 69.99 and it was broken, but they got a lot of stick anyway for releasing the last one in the state it was, so what do they lose?

Early access is exactly what I suggested. I just don't remember where I suggested it.

But, yeah, I agree. There are very few downsides. Except a company like EA is never going to work on a game until it's good. They are on a tight schedule. You've got to move on to the next game ASAP; otherwise you are messing up their stock plans. They did let Bioware work on Anthem for another year or so, but then pulled the plug long before Bioware really had a chance to rework the game.

But other companies aren't as stone cold psychotic as EA. So for them, releasing into early access might be a good idea. The only thing is that you need to let players know as soon as possible that this is what you are going to do. I think CDPR actually thought their game was good enough for release.

 

[ZedClampet]

That would be it for AAA, that's been well-proven in all the other entertainment industries. Movies know the lifetime revenue after the first weekend, Amazon algos revolve around the combo of pre-orders and first-day sales, etc.

Even if it could work differently for games, you can bet most of the marketing execs come from other similar industries and must play in the "You can't be fired for buying IBM" situation.


Well of course, that's the thing. No way of knowing if BG3 would've done a lot better going the conventional route. Maybe their success will encourage more experimentation, and a different way to market AAA games will slowly evolve.

I disagree. Gamers are very familiar with early access, and there is nothing in other entertainment industries that is comparable. Perhaps a trilogy would be somewhat similar, and no one is scared of those.

Also, about marketing. There is no way to get better marketing than being in early access. BG3 had stories written about the game the whole time and years of word-of-mouth advertising. By the time it released, people were in a BG3 frenzy. I don't think there's any way that it could have done better than it has. It's has to be the highest selling cRPG in history.

SteamDB sales estimate averages:
BG3: >10 million
DOS2: around 5 million
Pillars of Eternity: <2 million
Dragon Age Origins: <2 million

And total Baldur's Gate 2 sales from all sources are just over 2 million.

According to Bloomberg, BG3 sold 2.5 million in early access, so selling 8 million more in the first month and a half is just a huge, huge launch, regardless of the genre. And that's just on Steam. It might have sold another few million on Playstation, maybe 2 or 3 million. It was the top preselling game for awhile on PS5.

 

[Brian Boru]

I disagree

Yeah, good points. And those sales numbers are certainly phenomenal, thanks for checking.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

Well of course, that's the thing. No way of knowing if BG3 would've done a lot better going the conventional route. Maybe their success will encourage more experimentation, and a different way to market AAA games will slowly evolve.

Early access is exactly what I suggested. I just don't remember where I suggested it.

But, yeah, I agree. There are very few downsides. Except a company like EA is never going to work on a game until it's good. They are on a tight schedule. You've got to move on to the next game ASAP; otherwise you are messing up their stock plans. They did let Bioware work on Anthem for another year or so, but then pulled the plug long before Bioware really had a chance to rework the game.

But other companies aren't as stone cold psychotic as EA. So for them, releasing into early access might be a good idea. The only thing is that you need to let players know as soon as possible that this is what you are going to do. I think CDPR actually thought their game was good enough for release.

There's been a lot of QA groups unionizing and big publishers being naturally unhappy about it as they might have to give lower level employees some basic rights. Guess its possible someone somewhere will join those dots and cut QA in favour of charging customers to do it for them in EA.

 

[ZedClampet]

There's been a lot of QA groups unionizing and big publishers being naturally unhappy about it as they might have to give lower level employees some basic rights. Guess its possible someone somewhere will join those dots and cut QA in favour of charging customers to do it for them in EA.

I think you are still going to have to QA the game to some degree. Customers will only put up with so much even in early access.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

I think you are still going to have to QA the game to some degree. Customers will only put up with so much even in early access.

Yea definitlely but I bet they could save a ton if they looked at it that way.

 

[Zloth]

Idunno about EA, it seems to vary a ton by genre. For instance, BG3 (and the D:OS games before it) had EA that only let people play the first act. Others, like the survival genre, seem to be letting them into the full game then adding on new features as they go. The first is more of an extended demo - you know you aren't at the end of the game. The survival genre seems more sandboxy, so the game might not really have an "end game." That difference could be big when the game shows up. For the first type, people will want to get in and see the rest of the game. For the second, they're just joining in to see new features. Less people playing means less "buzz" about the game.

That would be it for AAA, that's been well-proven in all the other entertainment industries. Movies know the lifetime revenue after the first weekend, Amazon algos revolve around the combo of pre-orders and first-day sales, etc.

What about books? Even the modern bathrooms-are-for-the-weak movie lengths still get done in an afternoon, while games go on for a month or more.

 

[Brian Boru]

What about books?

That's the Amazon algos.