G2A and Grey Markets for game keys

[Brian Boru]

TLDR

I don't know what "bot farmed 'gift' exploitation" is about, does someone have a link or TLDR?

The reported dev claims seem quite ludicrous, I'm surprised the article just put them in without any context about customers, markets, Capitalism, other entertainment industries, marketing, other retail industries, and on and on.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

Fair enough. I dont see why the devs would complain if it wasnt causing them problems and losing them money. 5000 signatures aint nothing.

Just as easy to buy things from Fanatical/GMG or wait for sales on normal stores, then everyones happy, except G2A and the like.

 

[Brian Boru]

I dont see why the devs would complain if it wasnt causing them problems and losing them money

Human nature. It's their creations, so they're just too close to the issue, and too emotionally invested, to see the broader picture. I've seen creators complain when retailers run sales—"How dare they discount my precious product, that I slaved over for a year"!

Ask these devs have they ever bought a secondhand paperback or DVD. The creators get nothing from those transactions. It's a Capitalist market fundamental that once a customer acquires a product—for whatever price, incl free—ownership of the product is transferred from the creator or retailer to the customer. The customer is then free to dispose of that product as they see fit—gift it, sell it, let it gather dust.

Inexpensive product is probably bought from every retailer on the planet by fraudulent means, while stores build in what's euphemistically called 'inventory shrinkage' to cover theft loss. G2A will suffer these problems same as Steam, eBay, Amazon etc etc. If they're implementing safeguards like they say, that's what every retailer does to mitigate the losses—but never eliminate them.

The indie devs could do a lot more probably, mainly by being a bit careful when they hand out keys. It is unlikely that many of them have much or any business sense—that's not a common thing with tech or creative people—so who knows what kind of silly behavior they indulge in.

5000 signatures aint nothing

You'd probably get more for a petition that the Earth is flat

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

Then we are into the argument over software licensing vs ownership. Got any second hand audiobooks I can have a look at ? Its a different argument entirely.

Its going to boil down to me saying profiteering by fraud or another's charitable donations is wrong, and you saying 'If it aint illegal, that's capitalism baby'!

 

[Brian Boru]

boil down to

Oh I'm not saying I like it, that would be an entirely different discussion

I'm only talking about what is, not what it should be. Confusing the two leads to much grief!

 

[WoodenSaucer]

Thanks for that. Same as eBay, Amazon Stores etc then. Standard non-dumb shopping rules apply.

Well, I already understood that side of it. What was interesting to me is the extent they went to show that the vast majority of the keys are going to be legit, and why. I made a list earlier of possibilities of why the keys could be legit, and I actually had no idea about the biggest reason. Most of the sellers on there are resale "stores" that legitimately buy keys at a big discount directly from the publishers because they buy them in large quantities. It's the same type of deal that hardware companies make to include their keys with a video card. Then on top of that, they explained that if they were selling those keys on Steam, they'd have to give Valve a 30% cut, and G2A only takes like a 10% cut. So the reason they don't add a large profit margin to their huge savings is because the nature of a market is that there is competition. If their prices are too high, people will just buy the keys from someone else.

They also explained that no one sells anonymously, and they have all of their personal info on file. They're all vetted, and if you buy from a store they suggest, or one that has a ton of history and positive reviews, you can be sure they are legit. They went on to explain why it's not worth it anymore for people to try to sell codes bought with a fraudulent credit card, because they've made it hard enough that it's just not worth it.

After reading that, I'm actually convinced that it's almost always going to be legit to buy the AAA games from big publishers. But I can also see how it would be more likely for the little guy to get screwed.

Then we are into the argument over software licensing vs ownership. Got any second hand audiobooks I can have a look at ? Its a different argument entirely.

Its going to boil down to me saying profiteering by fraud or another's charitable donations is wrong, and you saying 'If it aint illegal, that's capitalism baby'!

But in the case of the gray market (I refuse to spell it "grey" ), we're not talking about selling secondhand games. We're talking about selling secondhand licenses to play the games that haven't been activated yet. In every case, those licenses have either been paid for, or the dev/publisher willingly gave them out for free for whatever reason (reviews, prizes, etc.)

I'm sorry guys. At first, I wasn't trying to be for it or against it. Their explanation just helped me understand some things I didn't know about.

 

[Pifanjr]

I'm sorry guys. At first, I wasn't trying to be for it or against it. Their explanation just helped me understand some things I didn't know about.

Don't be sorry, I didn't know grey markets had done a lot of work to become more legit since the last time I looked into them. I'm happy I learned something new.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

Oh I'm not saying I like it, that would be an entirely different discussion

I'm only talking about what is, not what it should be. Confusing the two leads to much grief!

And then we would have to get into what can be and what ought to be and it would get even more confusing!

Well, I already understood that side of it. What was interesting to me is the extent they went to show that the vast majority of the keys are going to be legit, and why. I made a list earlier of possibilities of why the keys could be legit, and I actually had no idea about the biggest reason. Most of the sellers on there are resale "stores" that legitimately buy keys at a big discount directly from the publishers because they buy them in large quantities. It's the same type of deal that hardware companies make to include their keys with a video card. Then on top of that, they explained that if they were selling those keys on Steam, they'd have to give Valve a 30% cut, and G2A only takes like a 10% cut. So the reason they don't add a large profit margin to their huge savings is because the nature of a market is that there is competition. If their prices are too high, people will just buy the keys from someone else.

They also explained that no one sells anonymously, and they have all of their personal info on file. They're all vetted, and if you buy from a store they suggest, or one that has a ton of history and positive reviews, you can be sure they are legit. They went on to explain why it's not worth it anymore for people to try to sell codes bought with a fraudulent credit card, because they've made it hard enough that it's just not worth it.

After reading that, I'm actually convinced that it's almost always going to be legit to buy the AAA games from big publishers. But I can also see how it would be more likely for the little guy to get screwed.


But in the case of the gray market (I refuse to spell it "grey" ), we're not talking about selling secondhand games. We're talking about selling secondhand licenses to play the games that haven't been activated yet. In every case, those licenses have either been paid for, or the dev/publisher willingly gave them out for free for whatever reason (reviews, prizes, etc.)

I'm sorry guys. At first, I wasn't trying to be for it or against it. Their explanation just helped me understand some things I didn't know about.

I respect your opinion. Just on my part I'd rather buy from Fanatical or Green Man Gaming where all the keys as I understand have always been legit, rather than from places that only put some form of checks in place once they were called out on it publicly and lost business because of it.

I only buy from Steam and GOG myself anyway

 

[WoodenSaucer]

I respect your opinion. Just on my part I'd rather buy from Fanatical or Green Man Gaming where all the keys as I understand have always been legit, rather than from places that only put some form of checks in place once they were called out on it publicly and lost business because of it.

I only buy from Steam and GOG myself anyway

Yeah, I don't think anyone could not respect your opinion. For me, personally, what I learned through this, just yesterday, was that I probably wouldn't feel bad buying AAA games from G2A, as long as I stuck to seasoned sellers on there. But I don't think my convictions would let me buy indie games on there. I think I'd rather buy the indies from Steam or something, just because I don't think the same legit key obtaining methods work with indies. I'd rather make sure they're supported right.

 

[Brian Boru]

we would have to get into what can be and what ought to be and it would get even more confusing!

I don't share your compulsive feeling, but I agree—should be, can be and oughta be are blind alleys… stick to what is.

all the keys as I understand have always been legit

As mentioned before, I've been involved in the small-guy struggle against fraud for decades. In all that time, I've never seen evidence that all products from any retailer were legit. I have seen cases of previously highly regarded outfits going downhill—but it's well known that past performance is not indicative of future performance, so don't pin blindly on past or present good guys.

buy from … rather than from places that only put some form of checks in place once they were called out on it publicly

You haven't watched YouTube? Used FaceBook? Put gasoline in your car? Etc 1,000,000s of times. Because an entity's call-out hasn't made headlines does not mean they're cleaner than the next guy.

I only buy from Steam … myself

So you're okay with the big retailer revolt against bad ol' Steam in the 00s?
You ok with Steam flexing its market dominance by taking 30% of sales, when Epic takes only 12% and Discord only 10%—oh, and G2A 11%?
How about last decade's "F" grade from the Better Business Bureau?

I could go on and on, but as I've often said here, I'm a big fan of Steam—so I prefer not to wade pointlessly in the weeds which grow around all companies' feet, or the dirt that get's splashed up on them.

I only buy from … GOG myself

I'd prefer not to dwell on GOG's less-than-stellar moments either unless you're genuinely unaware, as I'm also a big fan of theirs. In short, if you want angels, go to heaven—you won't find 'em down here. Present poster excepted, of course.

 

[Brian Boru]

I'd rather buy the indies from Steam

I'm the opposite, I'd rather G2A take their 11% cut rather than Steam take 30%—as an indie in another industry, I assure you that's a better result for the indie

If it's not the indie selling on G2A, then sure, go with your personal preference.

 

[WoodenSaucer]

I'm the opposite, I'd rather G2A take their 11% cut rather than Steam take 30%—as an indie in another industry, I assure you that's a better result for the indie

If it's not the indie selling on G2A, then sure, go with your personal preference.

Yeah, that's a good point, if the indie is getting the money. My main concern is that it seems like the low prices being legitimate is more believable with big publishers, because they regularly sell to resellers at bulk for discounts. I doubt if small indies do that in the same capacity, but what do I know? I'm just thinking even though the keys are probably legit, and legal, there is a better chance of indies getting screwed than big publishers.

But your point is good to consider, too. You're making me want to buy all my games on G2A, and feel like it's unethical not to.

 

[ipman]

My brain hurts.(correct me on any of this as I try to process it and make some sense)

It's obviously a very competetive market and for the bigger companies and for distributers like Steam or Epic a very lucrative one. And both own development companies and Steam hardware companies. Steam seem to be privately owned and Epic seem to be private but almost half owned by Tencent who are a shareholder owned company.

Ubisoft seem to be 80% owned by shareholders, Guillemots corporation(part private, part shareholders) and Tencent Company(again shareholders) owning the rest.

So I think that small developers obviously deserve what ever they want to charge.

So I agree with what Brian said about how shareholder companies shift their focus to maximizing profits for those shareholders at the expense of the product and customers.

So if you look at this from the perspective of these corporations and corporate lawyers, they want to keep complete control of their products and maximaise profits for their shareholders. That may even mean spinning some stories about how legit sites like G2A are. Even calling them 'grey sites' is part of that.

But if you look at it from the point of view of the consumers, us gamers, we want them to invest in better games and offer the best prices. Like if gamers want to sell their unwanted games at a lower price on G2A.

 

[Brian Boru]

I doubt if small indies do that in the same capacity, but what do I know?

If I was an indie game dev, I'd be kicking the doors of some resellers down to sell bulk to them at serious discount.

The problem for indies is not getting top dollar for each sale, it's getting sales at all to start with. The problem is called 'discoverability' and is an issue in all the entertainment industries. Steam releases roughly 30 titles per day—it is so depressingly easy to disappear without trace.

As I said earlier, business acumen is not a natural complementary trait for a skilled dev to have, so they are very likely unaware of all this, and subscribe to the tenet of build it and they will come. Devs gotta get people playing their game and talking about it—how that happens is very secondary to that it actually happens.

 

[Brian Boru]

Epic a very lucrative one

No, it's a major loss for Epic, $billions so far if I recall correctly—they're investing for long-term.

 

[WoodenSaucer]

If I was an indie game dev, I'd be kicking the doors of some resellers down to sell bulk to them at serious discount.

The problem for indies is not getting top dollar for each sale, it's getting sales at all to start with. The problem is called 'discoverability' and is an issue in all the entertainment industries. Steam releases roughly 30 titles per day—it is so depressingly easy to disappear without trace.

As I said earlier, business acumen is not a natural complementary trait for a skilled dev to have, so they are very likely unaware of all this, and subscribe to the tenet of build it and they will come. Devs gotta get people playing their game and talking about it—how that happens is very secondary to that it actually happens.

You're convincing me! Anyone who buys game keys anywhere except G2A is an evil, immoral person. If you care about the devs, then you have to buy from G2A.

Seriously, though, I've learned a lot from finding their web page on it and our discussion.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

So if you look at this from the perspective of these corporations and corporate lawyers, they want to keep complete control of their products and maximaise profits for their shareholders. That may even mean spinning some stories about how legit sites like G2A are. Even calling them 'grey sites' is part of that.

I like your thinking, but they arent spinning those stories about other sites like Fanatical or GMG. Only G2A, I dont buy it, unless you have any evidence to support it?

I'd prefer not to dwell on GOG's less-than-stellar moments either unless you're genuinely unaware, as I'm also a big fan of theirs. In short, if you want angels, go to heaven—you won't find 'em down here. Present poster excepted, of course.

A fair point. GOG though have come a long way since they were selling hooky CD's on markets in Poland 30 years ago. The years of work they've done for game preservation and the love and care they displayed in making their games since has made up for that. Doesn't mean they couldn't fall though.

I'm not yet convinced G2A is trying to do that kind of good work. Especially as all their evidence for their innocence comes from their own statements. I think the lady doth protest too much. Theyll hold their hands up when theyre caught, otherwise its all fair game. I realize this is standard behaviour in a lot of business, doesnt mean we have to accept it as normal and ignore it so soon after the fact.

You haven't watched YouTube? Used FaceBook? Put gasoline in your car? Etc 1,000,000s of times. Because an entity's call-out hasn't made headlines does not mean they're cleaner than the next guy.

False equivalence. I can choose not to use a game key reseller or digital store because there are alternatives. If I want to stay in touch with family and friends on the other side of the world, theres no other viable choice. Likewise Youtube is ubiquitous, if I want to watch or share any video on the internet there isn't an alternative.

So you're okay with the big retailer revolt against bad ol' Steam in the 00s?

You'd have to enlighten me? Google doesnt find any reference,

You ok with Steam flexing its market dominance by taking 30% of sales, when Epic takes only 12% and Discord only 10%—oh, and G2A 11%?
How about last decade's "F" grade from the Better Business Bureau?

I could go on and on, but as I've often said here, I'm a big fan of Steam—so I prefer not to wade pointlessly in the weeds which grow around all companies' feet, or the dirt that get's splashed up on them.

Whataboutism.

But anyway as far as I was aware Steams 30% for digital was originally a smaller cut than it cost for publishers to create and ship retail items, so they were quite on board with it back then? Not to mention availability.

I'd totally be in favour of them lowering their cut based on present alternative options and competition. Quite a few devs have already gone with Epic timed exclusives because of it. Not aware of anything overtly anti consumer or anti publisher/dev by Steam, but I'm sure they've had their issues at times like anything.

Always shades of grey of course, but it takes longer for some stains to fade.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

G2A sold $450k worth of our game keys

For a while now our devs have been getting e-mails from G2A with proposals to work together. We no longer actively jump on additional distribution opportunities (there's a new bundle every day...), but the whole G2A subject needs to be talked about a bit more. Before I dive deeper, it's...

www.tinybuild.com

G2A came out with an initiative that finally addresses some of the issues we've been talking about.

The only tangible part about their program is royalties to developers and database access which undoubtedly is a good step -- we will need to see how it works in practice. It still doesn't solve the issue of stolen keys or the shady business practice of forcing down insurance on consumers you won't get a guaranteed key unless you sign-up for their insurance service. It seems they want it all to be on developers' hands and unless the devs become actively involved in policing G2A (and thus working with them) they'll wash their hands off any responsibility. We as a community want to see more extensive merchant verification to go alongside this.

Unless they actually solve the main issue -- fraud on their platform -- this initiative invites developers to become accomplices. G2A claims that fraud is a very small part of their economy. If so it shouldn't be that difficult to implement ethical business practices of extensive merchant verification?

Found some more about the earlier scandal from a devs side. I'd be really interested in finding some views/articles from devs or independent media on the 2023 state of G2A. I wonder how many of the original complainants have been mollified by the actions G2A claim to have taken. Theres a few stories of them offering compensation after fraudulently obtained keys were found to have been sold.

It also leaves the question of other key resellers, have they taken any actions and why werent they included in the original scandal?

 

[Brian Boru]

they arent spinning those stories about other sites like Fanatical or GMG. Only G2A

Major difference. Others are retailers, G2A is not. So comparisons aren't very valid, it's like comparing eBay or Craigslist to Amazon or Walmart. That said, GMG have also gotten flak over unauthorized keys. The maybe poster child for goodness, Humble Bundle, had had its fair share of flak and dissention too—truly, there are no angels.

GOG … years of work they've done for game preservation

Completely agree, as I said, big fan of theirs. But there's more than Poland 30 years ago, there's last decade with the Chinese kerfuffle and the hitman controversies—and let's not talk about Cyberpunk release. Have done great stuff, but no angel.

False equivalence

Sorry if I was unclear, I wasn't making an equivalence

theres no other viable choice … there isn't an alternative

In both cases there are at least many dozens of choices, probably hundreds.

enlighten me? Google doesnt find any reference

Maybe try Bing

Retail threatens Steam ban - MCV/DEVELOP

The world's biggest digital games retailer is under attack. - MCV/DEVELOP

www.mcvuk.com

Whataboutism

Not aware of anything overtly anti consumer or anti publisher/dev by Steam

Man, you gotta switch to Bing or DDG or anything else—there are oodles of problems in Steam's court, only a click away. They're certainly farther from the angels than G2A, that's for sure.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

I dont see how one company doing something questionable excuses another doing something entirely different, I see all that as a red herring, maybe thats just me.

Trying to focus on any new articles or evidence of G2A or any of the other grey markets moving towards better practices or otherwise. Drawing a blank since 2020, so maybe no news is good news?

 

[WoodenSaucer]

Here's what I love about this place. Two mods with opposite opinions can openly discuss a topic that is this volatile, and it doesn't feel awkward or heated. It's just a good discussion with reasonable ideas on both sides that hasn't devolved into name calling. Why can't the world be more like this?

 

[ipman]

Here's what I love about this place. Two mods with opposite opinions can openly discuss a topic that is this volatile, and it doesn't feel awkward or heated. It's just a good discussion with reasonable ideas on both sides that hasn't devolved into name calling. Why can't the world be more like this?

I think generally the world is. There seems to be a sort of machismo comes into play on some forums like the posters act in some way like the characters they play in games.

This thread has been useful to me in that I've bookmarked a few new sites I hadn't heard of including G2A.

As a consumer the more sites competing in the market using different sales models the better.

One thing I like about Connect is not only do they have good sale prices, but you could earn even more discounts from completing in game challenges.

 

[Alm]

I buy games from CDkeys. They have a fancy website so it feels legit and I've never had a problem with their keys but, to be honest, I don't know for 100% where they get keys from. I normally buy there if there are no Steam sales. For example, Final Fantasy 7 Remake was £70 on Steam and I got it for £50 on the website.

I know some people will think it's to be frowned upon and think I'm entitled but the latest prices for PC games are so expensive if you buy more than 3 games a year. I don't pirate.

I remember PC Gamer being anti key sites a long time ago but they would advertise key sites so it couldn't have affected them that badly.

 

[Brian Boru]

Why can't the world be more like this?

I agree with @ipman, it generally is—but the loudmouths and conflict stirrers always get more clicks and views, so it sees they are in the ascendancy.

reasonable ideas on both sides

What? Did you not pay attention? The reasonable ideas were all on one side!

I buy games from CDkeys

Yeah, they get a thumbs up from a good journo, I think I've bought there before, not sure.

some people will think it's to be frowned upon and think I'm entitled

Some people will think you shouldn't have crossed the road, or should visit your mom more often. Don't be guided by any prejudices or gut reactions other than your own

 

[ipman]

No, it's a major loss for Epic, $billions so far if I recall correctly—they're investing for long-term.

Have I misunderstood? I see references to Epic being worth over $32 Bn.

 

[ipman]

I think that what the general population think of as moral, is not related exactly to the morality of businesses. So a simple example, if a company can increase it's profits by paying workers less then it will shift it's manufacturing to a lower wage country and the original workers are redundant, but there are many examples.

I get the impression that businesses work on a different model; ie: it's moral if it protects our increasing profits.

When we were talking about this the other day, relating to prices of games in different countries, I was also reading about Steam's regional pricing changes, which also explained why some people(on Steam forums) in Turkey and Argentina were complaining about sudden increases, like 400%. Although this seems to be related to games in those countries being too cheap to start with.

'Rather than just pegging prices to foreign exchange rates, our process for price suggestions goes deeper into the nuts and bolts of what players pay for the goods and services in their lives. This includes metrics like purchasing-power parity and consumer price indexes, which help compare prices and costs more broadly across a bunch of different economic sectors'.(Valve)

And the article claims 'that Steam helps curb piracy in many countries by being a user-friendly option that houses reasonable pricing'.

from> https://nichegamer.com/steam-regional-pricing-in-effect/