When is too much to do enough?

Frindis

Dominar of The Hynerian Empire
Moderator
Games today have countless activities and I enjoy Yakuza 0's extensive options as an example because they’re wisely implemented, so I never feel they are pushed on me. I can play poker, watch shady videos, dance, or do a lot of other stuff, so I have tons of options.

What about you? Do you have a limit, does it depend on how well they are implemented or is just having more options better so you can eliminate those you do not want to do?
 

ZedClampet

Community Contributor
Besides the options being well-implemented, I want them to also be leading somewhere in terms of the overall goal of the game.

For instance, if the main point of the game is to reach a certain level of wealth, and there are 20 different ways to earn money, then that would be great. But if the main point is wealth, and there are side activities that are worthless for that goal, like a karaoke mini-game, then I'm not interested. I'll probably play the Karaoke mini-game once and then ignore it.

Big Ambitions does a pretty good job of working side activities into the game by making your character's happiness and energy levels a big part of the game, and the side activities, like gambling or whatever, positively impact your happiness/energy.
 

Frindis

Dominar of The Hynerian Empire
Moderator
Big Ambitions does a pretty good job of working side activities into the game by making your character's happiness and energy levels a big part of the game, and the side activities, like gambling or whatever, positively impact your happiness/energy.
That made me think of the latest GTA game. The more you do stealth, combat, and such, it make your character stronger and is a necessity (or at least will help tons) if you are going to do PVP or bank robberies with high stakes.
 
Dec 22, 2024
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Hmm.. in Yakuza games in particular I think they went down the rabbit hole to the point where fans now expect a lot of side stuff to be in. But the more you put in, the more likely it is that not all of them are going to be good. To the point that sometimes it looks like it was added just because they could (for instance Sega Master System games in Judgment and obscure arcade games in Like a Dragon).

I don't mind that they don't serve a specific gameplay purpose or just a very remote one (for instance some Yakuza minigames have meta-currencies that will allow you to get rare items). More often than not the will to play it is also a metagame like achieving a completion rate or because some are tied to side-stories.

But very rarely have I turned on a game just to play a secondary game within. From a design standpoint I think it's rather counterproductive. Games should be as streamlined as possible. As a commercial product, I guess it might be an extra to put as many features in as possible.

I'll have to think about it some more. As you were mentioning GTA I was remembering that in GTAIV you had all these games you could call NPCs to play with, like billiards etc. It seemed more like a fanciful: "look what we can do, how immersive it is to call a friend on a phone to play!"
Or wasn't one of the Project Gotham Racing that had Geometry Wars in it?
They had nothing to do with each other. Is it just a way to keep you in the game and not turn off and play something else? As a way to break up the pace and interpose action with relaxation?

Bit stumped on this.
 

ZedClampet

Community Contributor
I'll have to think about it some more. As you were mentioning GTA I was remembering that in GTAIV you had all these games you could call NPCs to play with, like billiards etc. It seemed more like a fanciful: "look what we can do, how immersive it is to call a friend on a phone to play!"
Or wasn't one of the Project Gotham Racing that had Geometry Wars in it?
They had nothing to do with each other. Is it just a way to keep you in the game and not turn off and play something else? As a way to break up the pace and interpose action with relaxation?

Bit stumped on this.
I'm not sure, but this sounds like an attempt to raise engagement, which is something a marketing department would encourage.
 

Frindis

Dominar of The Hynerian Empire
Moderator
But very rarely have I turned on a game just to play a secondary game within. From a design standpoint I think it's rather counterproductive. Games should be as streamlined as possible. As a commercial product, I guess it might be an extra to put as many features in as possible.
I do agree somewhat, but I also can't argue against myself actually wanting to play Yakuza 0 and walking down to a shady Casino place so I can play some solid poker games. Maybe it is because most games nowadays implement bad poker, except Red Ded Redemption 2 which did it well, but perhaps too easy.
 

ZedClampet

Community Contributor
I do agree somewhat, but I also can't argue against myself actually wanting to play Yakuza 0 and walking down to a shady Casino place so I can play some solid poker games. Maybe it is because most games nowadays implement bad poker, except Red Ded Redemption 2 which did it well, but perhaps too easy.
And there aren't really any good single-player poker games anymore either. There are tons of poker games, but they are all multiplayer only and require you to purchase in-game currency to play.
 
I'm all for more content. The problem is when mundane content that's tedious, unrewarding and/or necessary. I'm talking about grinding to level up to unlock gear or weapons that are meta. You know, Multiplayer games like COD or an MMO where your exp requirements bores me to tears and requires me to take up the task like a second job.


In Yakuza's case? you know, i think i want more content. I believe it enriches the world, but on the flip side, if no one plays it and the effort/reward ratio is not worth doing by the devs. But i do appreciate the devs going the extra mile doing it.

So what would i like to see more of in yakuza?

- Porting old classic arcade games (sega's back log is huge, maybe 1mb each. although having virtual on was really nice in Y2 kiwami.)
- meaningful sub games with side stories fleshed out and indepth. maybe a cooking mama cooking game or a racing game or the bouncer game
- Minigames that upgrade skills or massive amounts of cash i can piss away on sub games. the hostess club may have been boring but it made lots of money.


what don't i want?

- Collectathons piss off collecting 100+ of a certain item hidden.
- Repetitive activities that is unrewarding.
- dull arcade knock offs that players can see everything in one play through.
- generally passive sub games.
 

ZedClampet

Community Contributor
@ZedClampet I know for a fact one of the better ones was delisted on Steam, but I can't remember the name! My nephew owns it, so I'll probably get the name tomorrow. Found it: Telltale Poker Night 2
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egni86k-2dA

I've got that, and the poker playing is very good, but I prefer more of a simulation approach, and there's no way to turn off the endless banter between the NPCs. There's a setting that cuts it down a little, but doesn't help much.

Here's a free one I might try:

Just ignore the user reviews that say the game cheats. Every poker game has lots of thos reviews because the players can't believe they keep losing when really they are just bad at poker. I mean, maybe this one really does cheat, but I'd be surprised.

Also, the top review complains that when you run out of chips you can't go back to old tournaments. However, from reading other reviews, that's kind of the point. To keep playing you have to start over from the beginning, kind of like a rogue-like. I gather there's an in-game currency you can buy with real money if you just really want to keep that run going for some reason.

I really miss the sims you could buy during the initial ESPN hold'em craze. I actually bought a simulator for $120 and the AI was just unreal. Very, very good, and you could have them simulate everything from $5 online poker to the World Series of Poker, and they would change their playstyles to fit, and every AI at the table would have a different style.

I really, really miss that game :(
 
I usually try the side activities once or twice and then ignore them. However, it does help with the immersion. Open-world games are a lot more immersive if you can go inside the buildings and actually do an activity there. If there's a casino, you should be able to gamble, if there's a golf course you should be able to play golf, etc.

I don't need to get a reward for playing these mini-games. I don't want the mini-games to be the best way to get money or the only way to get a unique item, unless it's purely cosmetic.
 
I usually try the side activities once or twice and then ignore them. However, it does help with the immersion. Open-world games are a lot more immersive if you can go inside the buildings and actually do an activity there. If there's a casino, you should be able to gamble, if there's a golf course you should be able to play golf, etc.

I don't need to get a reward for playing these mini-games. I don't want the mini-games to be the best way to get money or the only way to get a unique item, unless it's purely cosmetic.

I definitely like it from an immersion perspective, but if it's just there to exist, I find it quite uninteresting. Which seems weird, because I love exploring for the sake of exploring in games--though rewards at the end are very nice--but I definitely have minimal interest in doing general side activities. Thinking about it, of the two Yakuza games I've played, my interest starts dying off after uncovering several unrelated side activities...maybe there's something to that for me.

That said, in something like Dragon Quest 3 (on GBC, at least), I'll go to the monster fights and bet on monsters all day. I find it exciting that I can potentially win a ton of money and it can be generally gratifying picking the right monster to win, though it is all RNG. So one decent side activity that can contribute towards your progress, but isn't strictly necessary is pretty cool.
 

Zloth

Community Contributor
I like mini-games for exactly what their name implies: a miniature game inside a bigger game. If I've been playing for several hours, it's nice to take a break from the game to play a different game, just for a little bit.

I'm fine with putting rewards in, as long as they aren't critical to anything on the game's golden path. In other words, small rewards only or rewards that help with some other optional activity. A sword that makes the final boss easier would not be good, but one that helps against an optional boss (especially if it's in a funny way) would be fine.
 

ZedClampet

Community Contributor
I like mini-games for exactly what their name implies: a miniature game inside a bigger game. If I've been playing for several hours, it's nice to take a break from the game to play a different game, just for a little bit.

I'm fine with putting rewards in, as long as they aren't critical to anything on the game's golden path. In other words, small rewards only or rewards that help with some other optional activity. A sword that makes the final boss easier would not be good, but one that helps against an optional boss (especially if it's in a funny way) would be fine.
In an alternate timeline I'm playing an optional mini-game right now to receive a randomly generated NFT
 
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Colif

On a Journey
Moderator
What about you? Do you have a limit, does it depend on how well they are implemented or is just having more options better so you can eliminate those you do not want to do?

It all comes down to whether its fun or not.

In an alternate timeline I'm playing an optional mini-game right now to receive a randomly generated NFT
Ubisoft wishes more would play in that reality

Lots to do is fine if its not essential to do. Game I always mention had loads of extra content that wasn't essential. Choice to do it was based on chances of getting any fun drops, and in that game, that was everywhere.
I wouldn't play the games where you need to be lvl X to proceed and need to grind side content to get to it... (tries not to think of Wow)... okay maybe I did once, but it does depend if you having fun or not. More content is good if you enjoy it.

I don't play games to finish them, I play to have fun. So the length being really long can be a draw to me, as then I don't have to find another game as fast.
 
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Hell yeah! They could work with those small food shops around the cities. Racing games, I think got perfected with Like A Dragon and the carts racing.

i think what i would like to see in yakuza series is to move away from the usual Kamurocho, Okinawa and osaka areas. i would love to see a bit more expansion around tokyo. Ok like a dragon is now in hawaii but man... for such a small location it feels like its limited in activities.

But i suppose to be fair, each yakuza did try to give us some variations. In yakuza 4 we can at least go on the rooftops and the underground, but there is more room for exploring. i wouldn't mind some racing games or something and no the chasing mechanic is not a race.

the problem with having so much implemented is that it would be miles wide, metres deep. But again i think that packing it with classic games of yester year would be great.
 
Depends on the game, but I like games that have too much to do, But you don't actually have to do everything.

Typically thar means there are lots of options. On the flip side sometimes I just want simple with very few things. Thankfully these days there are options across every level of the spectrum
 

Frindis

Dominar of The Hynerian Empire
Moderator
I'm currently playing Kingdom Come Deliverance in preparation for the sequel and my god that game is good! It is also a game with a lot of stuff you can do, but so far it is just there for you to do if you want to. Some skills also level up while you run about exploring the game, so that is a plus.
 
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Zloth

Community Contributor
FF7 Rebirth may have more mini-games than Yakuza!
  • Queen's Blood collectable card game, which is actually fairly fun.
  • Making your summon material stronger means doing a memory test/QTE thing.
  • If you find a materia cluster, you need to scan it - which is a pretty trivial QTE.
  • Catching a chocobo (which is required for each zone of the game, I think) is a stealth mini-game.
  • Once you have a chocobo, a tiny race-track opens. I know from the original game that a much larger one will open up in the Gold Saucer.
  • Each area has a little Moogle store. To open it, you need to play a little minigame to corral the little buggars. (No option exists to murder them all. Mod desperately needed, kupo!)
  • Chocobos can sniff treasures out - an easy mini-game once you figure out how to do it from the not-so-good instructions.
  • Getting from lower-Junon to upper-Junon requires doing a race-thing where you try to run into balls on the track. Every time you hit one, you go faster, making it harder to hit more.
  • A huge QTE, with a glowing light travelling through prompts at all sorts of angles.
And I haven't even gotten to the Gold Saucer, which is a huge amusement park full of mini-games. Some of those games will just be repeats of the ones in the main game, some will be unique to the Gold Saucer.
 
Dec 22, 2024
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I was thinking about the subject of "desert island" games (games you'd take on a desert island, not games about desert islands).

There's an argument to be made that a game with many metagames within would be a good candidate. Going back yet again to Yakuza one thing that is somewhat annoying is that while they always add something new, they also subtract something old. So there are subgames that only appear on certain games or, even in different versions (I remember the karaoke game had a few variations between games and, of course, different songs).
As it stands, and as they like to put out so many games, perhaps a compilation of all the minigames from all games would be a nice idea to have someday.
 

Zloth

Community Contributor
And FF7 Remake continues to pile it on!

Get on a boat to move on to the next continent, and there's a Queen's Blood tournament. (You can forfeit at any time.)

Get to Costa de la Sol and three of your characters need beech attire. You don't have any, of course, being fiend-slaughtering death machines - but you can win some by playing some mini-games! This time you have to play some mini-games, though each character can pick from two (get a bonus outfit if you do both) and they aren't hard, except for the piano-playing game for Tifa.

Or maybe some of them are just novel quests? It's getting hard to tell the difference.
 
Dec 22, 2024
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I was searching for a sort of spreadsheet table that highlighted every Yakuza game and which minigames they had (mostly wanted to see the SEGA arcade games each had).

Haven't found it yet, but I found this huge blog post detailing every one (the post is from 2022 so I think the most recent ones are the Judgment games and LAD - and it also features the FOTNS spinoff), that I just have to share, it's amazing work that deserves recognition: https://storyarcblog.wordpress.com/2022/12/25/a-deep-dive-into-every-yakuza-minigame/
 
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I was searching for a sort of spreadsheet table that highlighted every Yakuza game and which minigames they had (mostly wanted to see the SEGA arcade games each had).

Haven't found it yet, but I found this huge blog post detailing every one (the post is from 2022 so I think the most recent ones are the Judgment games and LAD - and it also features the FOTNS spinoff), that I just have to share, it's amazing work that deserves recognition: https://storyarcblog.wordpress.com/2022/12/25/a-deep-dive-into-every-yakuza-minigame/

Awesome link. Look forward to some of those mini games. So far playing Y3 and Y4 those have been disappointing. But seeing all those subgames in Y5 onwards is VERY exciting. i'll be playing Y5 sometime in the fall. makes me want to get judgement and Lost judgement all the more. I could get them both for 20 but i would like the entire collection (the LJ dlc i don't think should be 14.99).

I want to see more damn it. MORE ARCADE GAMES!
 

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