Random Game Thoughts Thread October 16-22

[SleepingDog]

I remember liking Gone Home quite a bit. Havent played any walking sims for a while, but I remember like The Beginners Guide and The Town of Light as well. Did those type games go out of fashion or have I just not come across them recently?

I really liked The Vanishing of Ethan Carter and What Remains of Edith Finch but there was a little more game to those two than Gone Home I think.

Yes you are right about The Vanishing of Ethan Carter and What Remains of Edith Finch - more conflict and I think that in TVoEC dying was very real (in the game). I played for an hour or so and then got stuck. WRoEF - this I managed to complete in 2 to 3 hours - all about what happen to member's of the Finch's family - some of it fairly surrealistic and gruesome. Gone Home was like a gentle walk in the park compared to these two games.

Never came across The Beginners Guide and The Town of Light so have no view.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

Edith Finch had a lot of weird mini games and some of the vignettes were really touching. Most of what I remember about Ethan Carter is how beautiful a game it was for a small dev. I liked both but it was 5+ years ago so theyre mostly gone. Pretty much same story for the others, I have the achievements and a vague feeling of fondness towards them

 

[Zloth]

That sounds like you just set the turn limit too high.

I don't set turn limits. You never know how long it will take to overcome enemies.

 

[Pifanjr]

I don't set turn limits. You never know how long it will take to overcome enemies.

But then you have no one to blame but yourself for the end game taking so long when you already know you're going to win. You chose to keep going until the bitter end.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

Would be interesting if there was a way to keep it engaging even without having external conflicts or rivals. Like if there were elements of government management that became more comlicated once there were no significant rivals, or if past a certain size an empire had control issues that might result in independence wars. I'm sure these have been done, but that kind of thing. Stellaris has late game crises that happen when certain galactic parameters are met for example.

 

[Zloth]

But then you have no one to blame but yourself for the end game taking so long when you already know you're going to win. You chose to keep going until the bitter end.

Oh yes I do: silly victory conditions! Like I said earlier, you can look at the power graphs and easily tell when one empire is going to win. These games tend to be exponential, so one empire keeps climbing faster and faster while its nearest rivals go downward and don't recover for several turns. Once the game sees that, it should declare a victor.

I'm sure these have been done, but that kind of thing. Stellaris has late game crises that happen when certain galactic parameters are met for example.

Yeah, a few games do that late game baddy thing. Actually, Master of Orion 2 had something like that, except you were the late game baddy! The first empire to beat the ancient Orion fleet (?) would win the game. That worked pretty well for me. I wonder why other 4X games haven't used it?

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

Yeah, a few games do that late game baddy thing. Actually, Master of Orion 2 had something like that, except you were the late game baddy! The first empire to beat the ancient Orion fleet (?) would win the game. That worked pretty well for me. I wonder why other 4X games haven't used it?

It all seems to be a baddy like you say, but would be more interesting if someone could find another way outside of straight up warfare.

 

[Useful tips]

What's the best game for me to start playing?

 

[COLGeek]

What's the best game for me to start playing?

What kinds of games do you prefer?

 

[WoodenSaucer]

What's the best game for me to start playing?

Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?

(Oh, I guess I said I wasn't going to do that anymore. haha)

 

[Brian Boru]

What's the best game for me to start playing?

Welcome to the forum

What device do you have to play on?
Make & model, please.

ETA: on what subject do you offer "Useful tips"?

 

[Pifanjr]

It all seems to be a baddy like you say, but would be more interesting if someone could find another way outside of straight up warfare.

Civilization has a bunch of them outside of straight warfare, but I'm pretty sure warfare is usually the fastest way anyway.

 

[Lutfij]

What's the best game for me to start playing?

Games have a requirement to run on, we can't tell what you've got to work with, sadly.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

Civilization has a bunch of them outside of straight warfare, but I'm pretty sure warfare is usually the fastest way anyway.

Do you mean science or diplomacy victory and so on?

 

[Zloth]

There might be another way for players playing on an average or higher difficulty level.

Provide a button you can only use once per 10 turns. When you click the button, the game takes over your empire and plays the rest of the game out - only your empire plays at two difficulty levels lower than the other empires. If your empire still wins (via any victory type) within 25 turns, you win the game by whatever victory type the AI decided to use. The computer would just spin some sort of animation for a minute or two when you clicked the button, it wouldn't show what was happening.

I don't think it would be a very satisfying ending, but it sounds to me like something that would be a lot easier to code and it sure beats just saying "I win" at the monitor and quitting.

 

[Pifanjr]

Do you mean science or diplomacy victory and so on?

Yes.

There might be another way for players playing on an average or higher difficulty level.

Provide a button you can only use once per 10 turns. When you click the button, the game takes over your empire and plays the rest of the game out - only your empire plays at two difficulty levels lower than the other empires. If your empire still wins (via any victory type) within 25 turns, you win the game by whatever victory type the AI decided to use. The computer would just spin some sort of animation for a minute or two when you clicked the button, it wouldn't show what was happening.

I don't think it would be a very satisfying ending, but it sounds to me like something that would be a lot easier to code and it sure beats just saying "I win" at the monitor and quitting.

I mean, there's already a metric to track how well each empire is doing in most games. Just cut the game off at a particular point based on that instead of doing some arbitrary simulation of what might happen.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

Yes.

Ah I see My point was about events that can happen in the late game to spice things up if victory seems inevitable. Once you have a certain level of science output in Civ and no one else is close as I remember, you know youre going to win and youre just waiting for timers to tick down. What if there was a plague that ruined that or another culture/faction suddenly had a 'genius' born or certain societal movement towards or something. Not just a big bad appearing to be knocked down, but the possibility of failure to keep you engaged and wathing the game closely until you actually win.


Just talking nonsense here and I'm sure there would have to be a lot of work put in to make it so that it wasnt frustrating, but to me it would make things more interesting than a certain victory for too long. I tend to dip out of 4x or Grand strategy games once I'm way ahead of the nearest rival because it becomes boring.

 

[Pifanjr]

Ah I see My point was about events that can happen in the late game to spice things up if victory seems inevitable. Once you have a certain level of science output in Civ and no one else is close as I remember, you know youre going to win and youre just waiting for timers to tick down. What if there was a plague that ruined that or another culture/faction suddenly had a 'genius' born or certain societal movement towards or something. Not just a big bad appearing to be knocked down, but the possibility of failure to keep you engaged and wathing the game closely until you actually win.


Just talking nonsense here and I'm sure there would have to be a lot of work put in to make it so that it wasnt frustrating, but to me it would make things more interesting than a certain victory for too long. I tend to dip out of 4x or Grand strategy games once I'm way ahead of the nearest rival because it becomes boring.

That depends on the type of 4X. With something like Civilization, I'm not a big fan of the idea of other players getting random boosts. I like Civilization to feel like I'm playing on an equal playing field. I'd prefer it if the AI would work together more to oppose the player once the player gets too strong, as that is how human players tend to play these games.

However, in Stellaris the game doesn't pretend to be balanced for all empires, as some start far more advanced than the player. So the mid-/end-game events don't feel unfair but more like an additional challenge.

I would like to see more ways to interfere with other players besides just taking/destroying cities. Like the United Nations in Civ V, which you can use to restrict other players fairly effectively if you can secure the majority vote. Or the Spies from Civ 4 who can sabotage other players, though I'm not entirely sure how effective those are.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

Those sound like decent ideas to spice it up. I'm sure a lot of games are doing all kinds of things to advance the genre already. No way someone like me has time to intimately know every facet of every 4x games thats released. Just seems to me many of the ones I already played had a common issue and that the game that sparked this conversation was trying a novel way of avoiding that situation.

 

[Brian Boru]

Just talking nonsense here

Thank you for saving me some typing, and grats on the self-knowledge thing

There is zero need to finish any game—or get to ¾, ½, ¼ or any other arbitrary milestone. Play for as long as it's meaningful for you, then move on.

make things more interesting than a certain victory for too long

In 4X, up the difficulty level. In Civ4, there are 9 levels, and don't tell me you can win comfortably on Immortal or Deity!

Another approach is to delay your own start by a number of turns—ie wander around for X turns before settling. Speed at the start snowballs as the game progresses, so delay should be similarly handicapping.

If you like combat, choose Always War or a small Gaia map with 12 opponents—or handpick opponents like Monty, Axelgrinder, Napoleon, Stalin etc.

time to intimately know every facet of every 4x game

Oh goodness, no. Concentrate on those which are good for you, put the others in the Hidden list—or the Not Bought list, if you played a demo or saw a video

Same as any other genre, I guess. Keep those which work, dump those which don't.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

There is zero need to finish any game—or get to ¾, ½, ¼ or any other arbitrary milestone. Play for as long as it's meaningful for you, then move on.


In 4X, up the difficulty level. In Civ4, there are 9 levels, and don't tell me you can win comfortably on Immortal or Deity!

Another approach is to delay your own start by a number of turns—ie wander around for X turns before settling. Speed at the start snowballs as the game progresses, so delay should be similarly handicapping.

If you like combat, choose Always War or a small Gaia map with 12 opponents—or handpick opponents like Monty, Axelgrinder, Napoleon, Stalin etc.

Sure you can get around the issue of a long stale late game in 4X by just quitting, that's where we started. The thing was how to avoid the long stale part. Is there a way to keep a game fun all the way without having to quit. I do understand its not an issue for you, and it doesnt mean that games that have the issue are bad.

Higher difficulty sure makes it harder to win, but once you understand how to win at whatever level you can still end up in the same place.

What I'm missing as an occasional 4X player is if any games have already attempted to fix the stale late game thing or not. I'd guess they probably have, maybe in Civ 6 or something newer, no idea.

Oh goodness, no. Concentrate on those which are good for you, put the others in the Hidden list—or the Not Bought list, if you played a demo or saw a video

Same as any other genre, I guess. Keep those which work, dump those which don't.

Well, there's been a lot of games I played a little and didnt feel like playing more of that I came back to and absolutely loved once I got it, or was in the right mood for it, so it works a bit differently for me.

 

[Brian Boru]

as an occasional 4X player is if any games have already attempted to fix the stale late game thing or not. I'd guess they probably have, maybe in Civ 6

Not that I'm aware of—but I haven't played many 4Xs to a level where I know what's going on and what the late-game choices are.

I played Civ6 for about a month, but I'm fairly sure I didn't finish any game. I didn't see anything which suggested a fix—on the contrary, they made the earlier game more annoying by stuffing more complexity in it, probably hoping buying public equate complexity with strategy.

A Deus ex Machina, suggested earlier in thread, is not a solution imo—not in a strategy game, that's far more appropriate for a tactics game. Take the ultimate Western strategy game, chess—it is desired and admired if you have the game won by mid game, and just have to grind out the endgame if opponent doesn't quit.

So stale late game means you've played well—interesting late game means you're playing at or a little beyond your level of difficulty. Strategy isn't meant to be exciting—Sun Tsu said something like 'Never start a fight before you have it won'

works a bit differently for me

No, same here—just unhide or buy once you get rebitten by the bug

 

[Brian Boru]

If you play, or want to try, a casual genre known as Picross or Nonograms or Paint-By-Numbers, I have a nice Steam freebie for you:

Picross Touch

I just played the first 30-40 levels and it worked perfectly—times per level varied from 5s to 1m 15s, latter where I had to undo a mistake. There are thousands of levels available in the Workshop.

It's a nice time killer when you have only 5-10 minutes.