Save-Scumming: Good or Bad?

[neogunhero]

I just recently read a PCG article about how Esoteric Ebb tries to teach you not to save scum. We have all done it before, but some people feel more guilty than others when resorting to it.

What is your thoughts on save scumming? Is it good and acceptable, or bad and should be avoided at all costs? Do you keep retrying a part of a game to get your intended outcome, or do you live with the choices that you make?

Is save-scumming all that bad if you never reload any of the 100s of save files you've created?

I tend to quick-save a ton in any game I play. FPS, RPG, strategy, it doesn't matter, I'll hit that quick-save button hundreds of times an hour if I need to. I have even dedicated the + button on my numpad for quicksaving, and the / button for quickloading, that way my mouse hand and easily reach over and press it. However, I rarely ever go back to any of these quicksaves unless I absolutely need to. Perhaps it also depends on the games and the stakes.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Frindis]

I think it depends on how much you do it and exactly what the purpose of the save scumming is, not to mention how pure you want the playthrough to be. Like in Baldur's Gate 3, I would save scum a couple of times if I wanted to open a door that had a high chance of failure, like needing a 99 of 100 roll or something crazy like that.

In Dark Souls, I would save scum next to an entrance of a certain boss because the distance to the boss from the bonfire was ridiculously long, so it made more sense to save me the time, instead of doing the same boring walk over and over again when I died.

I save scum if I want to test out something, like killing every NPC in a map (Hitman games) or testing out how a spell I made works in Morrowind.

In Crimson Desert, I saved scummed a card game so I could get a quick buck. Instead of grinding a spot for an hour or two, I could just save scum and save some time, without it giving me too much of an advantage.

In some games I save scum if I want to see alternative dialogues, like making bad decisions and seeing the outcome, but not really wanting to do it in pure playthrough. It's more for the fun of it and can be fun in games like the Fallout series or other RPGs that have different dialogue options.

In Cyberpunk, I would save just before the ending of the game, so I did not have to start the game over again. I belive this is fixed now, but before, when you finished the main story, you were not able to actually go back to the world.

In a few games I have played, it has also been necessary to make a ton of saves because of broken game mechanics, like with certain point-and-click games or RPG games like Morrowind. Morrowind had one notorious bug that made the main story stop working if you picked up a certain silver plate from a dungeon. Stuff like that was more bound to happen with older games, so extra save games were a lifesaver.

Some older games also had some copy protection to them, so when you got a a certain place, you would have to type in a code or certain symbols or the game would stop working. If you saved before, you could either try to cheese the code or just get it elsewhere. Saved some time instead of having to redo a prologue or something like that.

 

[Zed Clampet]

I just recently read a PCG article about how Esoteric Ebb tries to teach you not to save scum. We have all done it before, but some people feel more guilty than others when resorting to it.

What is your thoughts on save scumming? Is it good and acceptable, or bad and should be avoided at all costs? Do you keep retrying a part of a game to get your intended outcome, or do you live with the choices that you make?

Is save-scumming all that bad if you never reload any of the 100s of save files you've created?

I tend to quick-save a ton in any game I play. FPS, RPG, strategy, it doesn't matter, I'll hit that quick-save button hundreds of times an hour if I need to. I have even dedicated the + button on my numpad for quicksaving, and the / button for quickloading, that way my mouse hand and easily reach over and press it. However, I rarely ever go back to any of these quicksaves unless I absolutely need to. Perhaps it also depends on the games and the stakes.

What are your thoughts?

Whatever floats your boat, as the old people used to say. I rarely if ever save scum if RNG isn't involved. I hate to lose simply because of RNG. I don't, for instance, reload after a failed battle in Xcom if I lost it fair and square, but if I lost it because I missed four 90 percent shots in a row, then I will often reload.

I loved BG3, but sometimes I just didn't want to fight someone for whatever reason, so I would make a quick save before a dice roll.

In Divinity Original Sin, I didn't start off save-scumming, but the game told me right away that I needed to do that when I opened up a random door, like an hour into play, and came face-to-face with an unwinnable fight.

 

[Johnway]

yeah play it your way. i try not to do it, but if a game is a long slog, extremely difficult and/or i'm losing patience i would save scum to make progress. The alternative is starting again each time and that's frustrating. Perhaps if there were some well placed autosaves, i might not be so quick on the save button, but you can never be too careful tbh.

 

[Pifanjr]

I personally think some of you have a too broad definition of save-scumming.

Is save-scumming all that bad if you never reload any of the 100s of save files you've created?

This is not save-scumming, this is just saving. The scum part comes from reloading a particular save over and over to get a particular outcome.

In some games I save scum if I want to see alternative dialogues, like making bad decisions and seeing the outcome, but not really wanting to do it in pure playthrough. It's more for the fun of it and can be fun in games like the Fallout series or other RPGs that have different dialogue options.

In Cyberpunk, I would save just before the ending of the game, so I did not have to start the game over again. I belive this is fixed now, but before, when you finished the main story, you were not able to actually go back to the world.

This is also not save-scumming, it's just reloading and doing something else. You're not forcing a specific outcome, you're exploring multiple outcomes.

In Divinity Original Sin, I didn't start off save-scumming, but the game told me right away that I needed to do that when I opened up a random door, like an hour into play, and came face-to-face with an unwinnable fight.

Same as this. Save-scumming would be if you kept saving and reloading to (try to) win the unwinnable fight.

In Dark Souls, I would save scum next to an entrance of a certain boss because the distance to the boss from the bonfire was ridiculously long, so it made more sense to save me the time, instead of doing the same boring walk over and over again when I died.

This is only save-scumming because you don't risk your souls when you do this. If you would lose all of your souls on purpose before setting the save near the boss room it's no longer save-scumming in my opinion.

---

For me, I consider reloading a save after a failed check or a dumb mistake to be like asking a Game Master or another player in board game if I can please try again or undo an action. Luckily for me, I'm pretty lenient on myself, especially if I just had a string of really bad luck or made a really dumb mistake that's going to make me lose a battle.

However, asking once is okay, asking twice is really pushing it and by the third time I feel like you might as well just cheat. There's nothing wrong with cheating if it improves your enjoyment of the game and it's a lot faster than reloading a save every time you fail, so just enable cheats at that point.

 

[Frindis]

Whatever floats your boat, as the old people used to say. I rarely if ever save scum if RNG isn't involved. I hate to lose simply because of RNG. I don't, for instance, reload after a failed battle in Xcom if I lost it fair and square, but if I lost it because I missed four 90 percent shots in a row, then I will often reload.

One of the reasons I did not want to play XCOM 2. Well, that and the placement of troops feels quite janky, reminiscent of how you moved around in Mass Effect 2. The 90% missed shots definitely felt a lot more like 50%. This becomes even more evident when you try to lockpick in BG3 or similar RPG games and you have a 90% chance to succeed and you actually succeed 90% of the time.

In Divinity Original Sin, I didn't start off save-scumming, but the game told me right away that I needed to do that when I opened up a random door, like an hour into play, and came face-to-face with an unwinnable fight.

Save with the sequel also. Had a couple of rooms where placement was very important, but since you had not done the fight, you would get some surprises, leading most likely to death.

I personally think some of you have a too broad definition of save-scumming.

Yeah, I think so too 🙃

This is only save-scumming because you don't risk your souls when you do this. If you would lose all of your souls on purpose before setting the save near the boss room it's no longer save-scumming in my opinion.

You are right if you purely look at it from what is defined as save-scumming, using the explanation you gave, but I also want to add that running from a bonefire to the boss room is probably the easiest thing to do, so the only reason for actually dying before getting to the boss room, would be from falling or just playing god aweful bad, like if you were an IGN reporter.

 

[Pifanjr]

One of the reasons I did not want to play XCOM 2. Well, that and the placement of troops feels quite janky, reminiscent of how you moved around in Mass Effect 2. The 90% missed shots definitely felt a lot more like 50%. This becomes even more evident when you try to lockpick in BG3 or similar RPG games and you have a 90% chance to succeed and you actually succeed 90% of the time.

I'm pretty sure that's just negativity bias. You take a lot more shots in XCOM than you pick locks in an RPG, so you have way more misses as well. Humans tend to remember things that go wrong better than things that went right, so it feels as if you miss way more than you'd expect. Plus humans are bad at statistics, 90% accuracy is still 1 miss every 10 shots.

You are right if you purely look at it from what is defined as save-scumming, using the explanation you gave, but I also want to add that running from a bonefire to the boss room is probably the easiest thing to do, so the only reason for actually dying before getting to the boss room, would be from falling or just playing god aweful bad, like if you were an IGN reporter.

True, the run-back is typically not the part where you die (though it definitely happened to me a couple of times when I tried to rush to the boss room as quickly as possible). But you also still have to pick up your souls inside of the boss arena, which means you have to take an additional risk that can cost you.

 

[Frindis]

I'm pretty sure that's just negativity bias. You take a lot more shots in XCOM than you pick locks in an RPG, so you have way more misses as well. Humans tend to remember things that go wrong better than things that went right, so it feels as if you miss way more than you'd expect. Plus humans are bad at statistics, 90% accuracy is still 1 miss every 10 shots.

Most likely, but interestingly enough, from all the games I have played, this one sure stands out like a sore thumb when it comes to accuracy. I also found it interesting that of all the games @Zed Clampet could have mentioned about the 90% luck, he also mentioned the same game I was thinking about when it comes to bad luck in high accuracy

True, the run-back is typically not the part where you die (though it definitely happened to me a couple of times when I tried to rush to the boss room as quickly as possible). But you also still have to pick up your souls inside of the boss arena, which means you have to take an additional risk that can cost you.

You still have to pick up the soul in the boss room with the save scumming; the only difference is that you spawn in front of the entrance, so you don't have to run from the bonefire and back again to the boss.

 

[Pifanjr]

Most likely, but interestingly enough, from all the games I have played, this one sure stands out like a sore thumb when it comes to accuracy. I also found it interesting that of all the games @Zed Clampet could have mentioned about the 90% luck, he also mentioned the same game I was thinking about when it comes to bad luck in high accuracy

You still have to pick up the soul in the boss room with the save scumming; the only difference is that you spawn in front of the entrance, so you don't have to run from the bonefire and back again to the boss.

Do you also lose all of the consumables you used during the fight? If so, it's not even really loading a save, more like abusing a glitch.

 

[BeardyHat]

I definitely do it, even when I don't want to. In my Pillars playthrough right now, I'm really trying hard to stick with the dialogue options I choose initially, so I'm thinking harder about how my character would actually respond and going with that. I have scummed it once or twice when I didn't like the outcome, however.

And have definitely done it with a couple of surprise fights against strong enemies, where positioning really matters.

I actually don't Save Scum in XCOM at all. Everytime I play, I play Ironman, since it feels like how it's meant to be played. My wife and I, playing together have two Commander-Ironman completions under our belt at this point and we've lost a lot of good soldiers, but we just keep plowing on.

 

[Colif]

The scum part comes from reloading a particular save over and over to get a particular outcome.

in essence, tool assisted speed runs are the ultimate form of save scumming. They can show new ways to beat games, so I think they good.

I don't know if I have ever done it. I may have, I just don't recall.
My reloading a lvl 135 Sacred 2 character after he died to a random effect felt like cheating. Mainly as there is a mechanic in game that rewards staying alive. So I felt like I was cheating using a save I had made previously. He died to a bug. So I felt like I could keep playing but part of me wasn't sure.