Art I think we're in a RPG Dark Ages

[TerryWithSpices]

There's not been a game in recent history that has lived up to the non-linear player freedom. The last one was Morrowind I think.

All Dark Aged RPG games have their souls diminishing. The core problem is when a quest marker tells us were to go or what to do we can't partake in the core immersion ((replayability is down the drain) options are destroyed) and Creativity is ciphoned (This is a good start but it takes more than a forum post to get this sorted, It takes God game developers like Tod Howard Prime).

Because of The Quest Marker - We can't hear the stories in our own perception(which changes from day to day) Game developers should learn to choose when to deliver it and when to not Because we can't find the places ourself this way, Think - We can't find the solutions ourself and we rarely find additional hidden stuff that 1. could enhance immersion or destroy relationships for a future quest NPC (and we the player choose what to do) because if a game marks everything of value like Skyrim or Cyberpunk 2077 then by definition everything non-marked is just Art (and what is Art is a futile debate). Just Art... Or 2. Adds a new dimension of the role-playing without the marks. And doing only what our character want's becomes a freedom. And we can't find more inbetween (like Everything?) Even Art? I like Art... Like the exploring in Zelda for instance was part of the whole game. A bit infuriating but oh-so rewarding. And this reward is fun-playtime, not 57 hour cutscenes. Not saying 57 hours of gold cinema is one day not gonna contribute to the best video game ever but "contribute", "boost" when it's linked into relevancy and the open world and transparent with the overall game so it doesn't feel separated from the world and spiced with omens here and there and sceneries from a mushroom trip.

When the game is good it tells us a story and we decide what we do with it. If we even want to do anything or can understand the game directors hints (all open world games have a theme and a backstory and lest not forget we want freedom, We are picky players and we certainly don't want to do anything our character doesn't support and if we do then we loose our connection with our character. So if the game is good then we start by being immersed, We decipher the quest, Maybe the Lore, The sceneary. Try figure out anything that something that makes us wan't to play more. We go out on an adventure. Find stuff, Probably stuff we did not expect. We expand maybe read a book. We observe the scenery. We sometimes find clues. We replay the convo that started it Or piece together old stories with a new scenery Or new NPC and wholla - From 2 or 3 quests grouped together because we saved them up and 2 locations, New birds or an intriguing NPC or omen we find so much more than a movie could ever tell us. We find freedom. Role-Playing essence (immersion). And it's comedic when our immersion is diminishing because of marks, marks, & marks. Omens aren't really ours (We don't see them, We all see them). And so obviously infuriating when game developers don't trust in our perception.

Hey it's ok to be shown just enough.

When game directors develop the game using inherent quest markers you can't just create a mod that removes all of them either because the directors have never found themself in random places not tied to a quest marker for them to desire putting random stuff there. In most games it's so obvious the NPC's automatically starts talking to you because if you would miss them You would never find yourself in a random place where they would be and randomly there because that was in the middle of a A-B But The inbetween of the World which brings it to life. That's the game.

TLDR: They should decide when to provide a quest marker and when not to and develop more stuff that is player free.

 

[Zloth]

If I'm piecing together a bunch of clues to tell the location of something, don't give me a quest marker. If I'm trying to find some big structure, like a tower, there's really no need for a quest marker, either. Most of the time, though, I would MUCH rather have a quest marker. Having to read through dialog describing just where to go then referencing it over and over again while I try to find exactly what was meant just isn't very fun. It can actually break immersion, too, if the character should have a pretty good knowledge of the area or if it's a futuristic setting.

If people want to do random exploration, they can strike out whatever directions they want. That's a lot more fun than having to look up the location of something in a game guide because the developers couldn't explain how to get there very well.

 

[Mazer]

If I'm piecing together a bunch of clues to tell the location of something, don't give me a quest marker. If I'm trying to find some big structure, like a tower, there's really no need for a quest marker, either. Most of the time, though, I would MUCH rather have a quest marker.

If it's somewhere my character should already know about but I as a player won't, it should get a marker. There's also a big difference between a marker on your map screen and one floating on the horizon in the game world, but devs are pretty good about making those optional.

 

[Pifanjr]

I think most modern games allow you to disable quest markers and from what I've read it seems developers are aware that a game should give enough direction without the markers enabled.

So I disagree, I think there are still games being made that do allow you to play just like you want to.

 

[spvtnik1]

I tried disabling the GPS markers and mini-map in GTA IV once.... I don't recommend it.

When the game is good it tells us a story and we decide what we do with it.

Have you ever experienced a joke ending in a LucasArts title? What happens when the audience decides - on purpose or by accident - to end the story? A story isn't complete until the end of it. The joke in those games was that the story was now ending wholly incomplete, often on a whim by way of the protagonist simply "wishing it was over." The majority of games have so much linearity to them, even the grandest RPGs and sandboxes. You can rearrange every letter from point A to point Z, but everything still starts on point A and ends on point Z. It is rarer and rarer these days to see Z(a), Z(b), Z(c), et al.

I think the problem lays more with the user than the designers. Some people become dependent on these markers, or instruction. I once watched a young adult playing GTA IV, driving through Liberty City, so focused on the mini-map, that he basically smashed in to everything on the way. I mean everything. To the point that he had to ditch his vehicle several times to even get there. It was infuriating. But without this sort of hand-holding, these people would declare the game unplayable.

Another friend of mine was playing a boss fight in Ruiner. It became pretty obvious to me that it was one of those fights where you needed to use part of the boss against them (launch a projectile back at them while they're vulnerable). After several deaths, I explained this to him, and he rejected the idea flatly, continuing the same method of attack as before. It was, again, infuriating. The game wasn't spelling this out for him, so how could it be a possibility? Yet, this behavior from a guy who beat Cuphead.

I don't disagree with you. There are some times where I've been delighted by the lack of a clearly posted waypoint or objective. A traditional RPG - usually already a grand journey with many branches - just doesn't seem like the best place for a lack thereof. Kingdom Come: Deliverance is a recent title that strikes a real good balance between "go here, do dis" and "actually, you can do whatever you want, but over here is a major plot advancing objective. You might miss some things along the way, but that's how your instance of the story is being told."

 

[I Will Haunt You]

I love markers and maps. I'll take them all day long. That way I can go "Hey, that looks neat!" and stray off my planned route to check something out. Maybe it takes me 15 minutes and two miles so having that marker will keep me from being lost.

 

[Johnway]

Ah, the challenge of leading players down a linear experience behind a non linear illusion. Its one of the trickiest things to implement. I remember playing Morrowwind wondering just where the bloody hell i was going due to the vagueness of certain paths and at times wondering if i was going the right way. In those games i just wish they would stop being so bloody obtuse and just mark it on my map. the worst case scenario is that to progress you have to look for a secret to progress forward and that brings back nightmares of games for the 16bit era where you searched for secrets to proceed and they give no clues that it existed or that was what i was looking for.

But like i say its tough, you need to do things in such a way that it seems naturally yet also not stupidly obvious. Flow/progress towards realism/challenge. Lets face it, no one really likes the game to lead you by the hand nor do they like progress to come a scretching halt especially when it gives you no suggestion as to what to do next? For the latter it might lead to uncertainty whether a game was bugged or just poorly implemented. take a boss that absorbs a huge amount of damage yet shows no indiction its impacting it. I would like energy bars to show that yes, it is a battle of attrition and not some idea that they're immune but show no ill effects.

maybe if you were told to search a lab for a special weapon it might be behind a locked case lit in such a way that it seems to make sense and give subtle hints to retrieve it. if however the ultimate weapon was hidden in a ventilation shaft that you've crawled through for hours already, i would call it crap design. its probably why i like the witcher 3's style for quest missions, locals mark the start and through your powers you follow your leads and located your stuff or you find notes to other people detailing useful stuff and use witchers vision to find stuff. Hell assassins creed made life simpler.

 

[Pifanjr]

It's just a simple fact that "dumbed-down" games usually sell better. Just take a look at the best selling games.

There's a big audience out there of people who aren't familiar with most video game tropes and will need some kind of hand holding to know what the game expects of them. And a lot of those just aren't interested in learning anything too complicated.

You can see the same happening with board games, where simple, easy to learn board games usually sell a lot better than ones that arguably give a better play experience, but are harder to learn.

 

[Inspireless Llama]

A lot of the time I don't think Skyrim's marker isn't really helpfull. All it shows you is what direction you need to walk, to figure out you walked into a mountain with no path nearby to get there. So I'll still have to explore to find that road up (or just walk straight up the mountain if possible). Would there not be a quest marker I'd probably lose interest in it quickly. I'm really bad at reading hints and recognizing them in the world.

Also, there's a difference in the kind of markers. Skyrim only shows you what direction you need to walk, Witcher 3 if you selected a destination, would show you the shortest way which usually went through a forest or a field where I didn't want to go. Also, in Skyrim a marker may have shown you the objective was in the "open world" while you had to go through a dungeon to get there. So it still was plenty of searching. I mean that white marker instead of a marker that showed you had to be inside somewhere. In the Witcher 3 I'd be looking at the map and be like "okay at the next crossing I need to go straight up, after that I'll need to turn left / go north. GTA 5's marker was a navigation, which makes sense because cars usually have it.

Red Dead 2's navigation didn't make sense because who in those days had live navigation when on a horse?

 

[Zloth]

Quest markers are why wizards live in towers. Even when an intruder is standing right on his quest marker, he won't know which of the 50 floors he's supposed to be on!

 

[Mazer]

Quest markers are why wizards live in towers. Even when an intruder is standing right on his quest marker, he won't know which of the 50 floors he's supposed to be on!

Dogs and adventurers can't look directly up.

 

[Sandwitch]

A lot of the time I don't think Skyrim's marker isn't really helpfull. All it shows you is what direction you need to walk, to figure out you walked into a mountain with no path nearby to get there. So I'll still have to explore to find that road up (or just walk straight up the mountain if possible). Would there not be a quest marker I'd probably lose interest in it quickly. I'm really bad at reading hints and recognizing them in the world.

Also, there's a difference in the kind of markers. Skyrim only shows you what direction you need to walk, Witcher 3 if you selected a destination, would show you the shortest way which usually went through a forest or a field where I didn't want to go. Also, in Skyrim a marker may have shown you the objective was in the "open world" while you had to go through a dungeon to get there. So it still was plenty of searching. I mean that white marker instead of a marker that showed you had to be inside somewhere. In the Witcher 3 I'd be looking at the map and be like "okay at the next crossing I need to go straight up, after that I'll need to turn left / go north. GTA 5's marker was a navigation, which makes sense because cars usually have it.

Red Dead 2's navigation didn't make sense because who in those days had live navigation when on a horse?

This X 1000. Or at least my interpretation of your post. The mapping/navigating interpolation is pretty much the reason why I tend to not get far in third person perspective RPGs, with the exception of Witcher which solved it by having a "point here dummy" approach--and tend to stick to isometrics.

The frustration of either overly vague direction or knowing where I need to go but not the specific path the designers laid in an otherwise "openworld" game gets me too many times. I know I'm the minority, because clearly Morrowind/etc are beloved by most, but it's just too offputting for my directionally challenged brain.

Assassin's Creed was a breath of fresh air (same with the latest Zelda) which seemed to release the "you can climb this boulder but not that one" boundary constraints of the Bethesda and Witcher games.

 

[Pifanjr]

Assassin's Creed was a breath of fresh air (same with the latest Zelda) which seemed to release the "you can climb this boulder but not that one" boundary constraints of the Bethesda and Witcher games.

In Skyrim, you can climb almost any mountain if you're willing to hump it for half an hour.

 

[Frindis]

Ghost of Tsushima (crossing fingers that it comes to PC at some time ) has done something amazing when it comes to quest markers. Instead of having arrows and the sort showing you where to move, the land itself becomes a navigational tool. The wind will guide you and even different types of animals can guide you to different locations/secrets. This is the type of mechanics I sincerely hope we will see more of in future games.

 

[Pifanjr]

Ghost of Tsushima (crossing fingers that it comes to PC at some time ) has done something amazing when it comes to quest markers. Instead of having arrows and the sort showing you where to move, the land itself becomes a navigational tool. The wind will guide you and even different types of animals can guide you to different locations/secrets. This is the type of mechanics I sincerely hope we will see more of in future games.

Skyrim did have the thing where water in a cave always lead you to the exit. Even in games where quest markers are a thing, level design is still important to show players where to go intuitively, so they don't only have the marker to go on.

It will be interesting to how well Ghost of Tsushima manages to show the player where to go without relying on quest markers.

 

[Mazer]

I remember Burnout Paradise had a fairly elegant solution wherein your car indicators would flash for your turns. Simple, intuitive, immersive, and you're free to ignore it.

 

[Inspireless Llama]

I'm currently playing Dishonored 2, where the marker literally tells you where you need to be, but in no way tells you how to get there. So it's still figuring out for me how I actually reach a certain point. That's a kind of marker I can appreciate. That's what Skyrim also does.

I don't need literally navigations, but some help on pointing out your destination is the perfect marker for me.

 

[Zloth]

In Skyrim, you can climb almost any mountain if you're willing to hump it for half an hour.

That's a.... unique way to climb a mountain, Pifanjr. You know, between the thin air and the snow, the UV can give you sun burn pretty quickly. Are you able to, like, sit down after climbing?

 

[Pifanjr]

That's a.... unique way to climb a mountain, Pifanjr. You know, between the thin air and the snow, the UV can give you sun burn pretty quickly. Are you able to, like, sit down after climbing?

I think I've only ever sat down accidentally in Skyrim.

 

[Sandwitch]

In Skyrim, you can climb almost any mountain if you're willing to hump it for half an hour.

I am really trying hard not to think about humping a mountain for half an hour. In seriousness, I really tried with Skyrim. And maybe my character was as directionally challenged as I am, but no bueno - particularly there was this forge or something, and I was just stuck trying to get up. It vexes me still.

 

[I Will Haunt You]

I am really trying hard not to think about humping a mountain for half an hour.

I don't remember that feature in any of the "romance" mods I've tried. Just about every NPC, yeah, but no mountains.

 

[Pifanjr]

I don't remember that feature in any of the "romance" mods I've tried. Just about every NPC, yeah, but no mountains.

Have you seen how many mods there are that makes mountains more "aesthetically pleasing"?

You can't tell me a mod called "Majestic Mountains" isn't made just for players to gawk at some nice, rocky formations. And even if you doubt that everyone who downloads that mod wants to get intimate with every crevice on a big pile of stone, you can't tell me that "Mountains Performance Boost" is anything but sexual.