How much fun is leveling to you (where you have to pick skills and such)?

[Zed Clampet]

So @Pifanjr told me that the level cap to 3 million hour game Baldur's Gate 3 is level 12. This has always annoyed me about D&D games. Leveling is just about my favorite thing in RPGs. Pick new skills, new spells, maybe allocate some attribute points. And that first big battle after leveling is more fun than usual because you get to try out new things. Why would I only want to be able to get to level 12? I want to get to level 100! V-Rising doesn't really have levels, exactly, but they do the advancement thing as well as anyone. You are always getting new toys to play with. Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 goes big into leveling as well. But Dungeons and Dragons? No fun for you!

It does occur to me, however, that not everyone shares my enthusiasm for leveling. I'm sure nearly everyone likes leveling to some degree. What is your opinion on it? Always new things? Or no?

 

[Johnway]

i do enjoy the customization aspects of games. it adds a layer of depth and complexity, even if i pick the archetypal RPG class strategy (one is the melee, another is long range, healer etc etc). Sure, sometimes it can be overwhelming and some upgrade systems are naff (those that give insignificant returns are a real turn off) but on the whole its a positive thing.

But grinding levels? absolutely not. if given the opportunity i would do it though. But i don't love it, its more like busy work making sure i'm ready and i don't have to struggle in a fight. if there is one thing I've learnt in RPGs, the bosses with be significantly more powerful and you need every edge you can get, be it more stats or abilities. hell, sometimes even that isn't enough to win.

JRPGs are definitely games i do a lot of grinding, not for the love of it, but i have to. if a JRPG doesn't provide sufficient opportunity for grinding, it can be extremely unrewarding and tedious. I'm currently playing trails of cold steel and that game doesn't have any decent/rewarding grinding. made worse that if you go up against a boss without the right items, you're in for a world of hurt or worse a brick wall.

 

[Pifanjr]

I don't mind how slow levelling is in D&D. Most classes have so many abilities by level 3 that I don't really feel a need to get more quickly, as long as the encounters are varied enough.

And I guess that's the main reason I want more levels: feeling like I don't have enough tools to deal with the encounters I'm presented with. Gaining a level is great when it gives me an ability that allows me to do new strategies or otherwise unlock new ways of playing the game. But there are also plenty of games where a level just gives a boost to some numbers and an ability I'll forget I have after 5 minutes. And there are a lot of games where gaining a level is great at the start of the game, but the further you get the less interesting the new abilities get, if you even still get any.

 

[Frindis]

Depends on the game for me. In some games it is enough to hear the level up sound and notice slight increase in stats. Other games might offer some type of rewards like skins, loot boxes and other carrots and that can work too. It depends on the genre and what else the game has to offer me.

In BG3, since you brought it up, I prefer less levels. That is not only because the game would be way to easy with more levels, but because a lot of the classes already have so many spells and utilities, it would just become overwhelming. Just try a sorcerer or a wizard and you'll find out what I am talking about by the time you are lvl 12. Or, try a jack of all trades character with only 1 level in each class and you'll become a giant bag of endless tricks.

Could BG3 have included more levels but with fewer spells/utilities instead? I guess, but that would also mean the game would be completely different rulewise and they would basically have to start from scratch.

You could also take into consideration that for BG3 you don't only have the 12 levels, you also have all the different tools you find on the way to these levels. Different zones have different items, scrolls, potions, mechanics that can really change how you play your character. You might also be lucky and find a high level item early on that just completely changes how you want to play or perhaps make you want to build around something specific.

 

[Colif]

D&D based on table top dice games, from the 80's, where the chances of the same game still being played when any character/person managed to get that high., were fairly low. So that could be why its max level is so low. I haven't really taken any notice of it since the 80's so I don't know if it changed... probably since they changed everything else. I remember Orcs.

I like leveling up. I am more likely to restart a game than end it... its not really about the skills you get along way, normally. Just having fun. hopefully.

I started heaps of alts in an ancient game called Wow, before end game became the only reason people play that game. That was almost 20 years ago now. I liked exploring the world

Max level of Sacred 2 was 200. I never got there as the points needed to get a new level grew each level to a point it was improbable since I played in Single player. Highest I have is 123 I think. Skills weren't tied to levels in that game... being able to wear gear was. Its possible the number of skills you had might change as you level.

 

[Zed Clampet]

Depends on the game for me. In some games it is enough to hear the level up sound and notice slight increase in stats. Other games might offer some type of rewards like skins, loot boxes and other carrots and that can work too. It depends on the genre and what else the game has to offer me.

In BG3, since you brought it up, I prefer less levels. That is not only because the game would be way to easy with more levels, but because a lot of the classes already have so many spells and utilities, it would just become overwhelming. Just try a sorcerer or a wizard and you'll find out what I am talking about by the time you are lvl 12. Or, try a jack of all trades character with only 1 level in each class and you'll become a giant bag of endless tricks.

Could BG3 have included more levels but with fewer spells/utilities instead? I guess, but that would also mean the game would be completely different rulewise and they would basically have to start from scratch.

You could also take into consideration that for BG3 you don't only have the 12 levels, you also have all the different tools you find on the way to these levels. Different zones have different items, scrolls, potions, mechanics that can really change how you play your character. You might also be lucky and find a high level item early on that just completely changes how you want to play or perhaps make you want to build around something specific.

I actually like being overwhelmed with spells and such. The only thing that bothers me about the level 12 thing, and it really doesn't bother me that much, is that I seem to remember (from many, many years ago) that the classes all got what I considered to be their signature talent/spell/skill at either level 15 or 16. There was a clear moment when you thought, now I've made it. A moment when you became more legend than adventurer.

 

[Pifanjr]

I actually like being overwhelmed with spells and such. The only thing that bothers me about the level 12 thing, and it really doesn't bother me that much, is that I seem to remember (from many, many years ago) that the classes all got what I considered to be their signature talent/spell/skill at either level 15 or 16. There was a clear moment when you thought, now I've made it. A moment when you became more legend than adventurer.

At level 17 spellcasters get access to the highest level spells, by which point they definitely become legendary, as you can do some pretty insane, reality altering things with ninth level spells. Which is probably exactly why those spells are not in Baldur's Gate 3, they aren't really fit for the strict rules of a video game.

 

[Zed Clampet]

At level 17 spellcasters get access to the highest level spells, by which point they definitely become legendary, as you can do some pretty insane, reality altering things with ninth level spells. Which is probably exactly why those spells are not in Baldur's Gate 3, they aren't really fit for the strict rules of a video game.

But...but...I want to be a legend! And pretty. I want to be a legend who is pretty. And whenever I arrive on the scene, I want AC/DC Back in Black to be cranked up. I want to see the awe in their faces as they gaze upon me. And then I want to look confused for a second and say, "Sorry, I forgot what I was doing....Who are you people again?"

 

[Colif]

I don't like being max level as then there is no more skills to get. Its akin to having the best gear in a game... why keep playing?

Having the best of everything used to mean you good at the game... now days in a lot of games it just means you wasted money in the shop. Gear you cannot buy but have to earn in game is way more valuable than the other pixels bought on shops.

 

[Frindis]

I actually like being overwhelmed with spells and such. The only thing that bothers me about the level 12 thing, and it really doesn't bother me that much, is that I seem to remember (from many, many years ago) that the classes all got what I considered to be their signature talent/spell/skill at either level 15 or 16. There was a clear moment when you thought, now I've made it. A moment when you became more legend than adventurer.

You are going to love the wizard then since not only do you get your typical lvl 1-6 spells, but you can also find some unique spells that you can only find through scrolls which you can scribe as a spell. Some of these spells can be very rare and pretty good for your party. You also get some spells from weapons/gear that makes it easier to make some builds since they don't consume your typical spell slots.

I know some people miss the highest levels, but you do get some incredibly good high level spells. Without spoiling to many of them, one of the amazing ones can basically make you immune to almost all damage making most boss fights trivial.

If you want a game with even more spells, I can warmly recommend Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition. Instead of the signature spells you have mythic spells and you also have several hundred spells to choose from with an incredible deep character customization. When I say deep, I mean one of the deepest one there has ever been in a video game.

This might be a good deal for Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition since you can get it in a bundle with other games:

Into Games Bundle 2025 | Steam Game Bundle | Fanatical

Welcome to the Into Games Bundle 2025, delivering a diverse...

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[Kaamos_Llama]

Yea it depends for me as well.

IN BG3 it feels significant to level up, and its suits the game because when it happens you can kind of think about what perks and spells are best to take for the character. In Clair Obscur 90% of the time its really a matter of dinking a point into whatever stats give the biggest damage every time you hit a flag. The other 10% of the time when theres actually enough skill points to gain an ability are when its really interesting.

I never use build guides, or even spend more than a few minutes looking for ability synergies for characters. Thats always been enough to beat games, but I dont really find much fun in trying to make broken builds that do infinite damage or whatever and make things kind of trivial.

 

[Pifanjr]

I never use build guides, or even spend more than a few minutes looking for ability synergies for characters. Thats always been enough to beat games, but I dont really find much fun in trying to make broken builds that do infinite damage or whatever and make things kind of trivial.

I'm very similar in that regard, though I do very much enjoy stumbling upon a broken build. It's why I really love some deckbuilding roguelikes and dislike others. Slay the Spire and Balatro for example usually require quite a bit of forethought to make a decent build, let alone a broken one, and are thus not nearly as fun for me. Whereas something like the Tombs of Terror mode in Hearthstone has a couple of passive effects that are ridiculously overpowered, letting you just luck into broken builds, while still feeling fair if you don't manage to get one of those.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

I'm very similar in that regard, though I do very much enjoy stumbling upon a broken build. It's why I really love some deckbuilding roguelikes and dislike others. Slay the Spire and Balatro for example usually require quite a bit of forethought to make a decent build, let alone a broken one, and are thus not nearly as fun for me. Whereas something like the Tombs of Terror mode in Hearthstone has a couple of passive effects that are ridiculously overpowered, letting you just luck into broken builds, while still feeling fair if you don't manage to get one of those.

I agree and disagree here. Not played Hearthstone, but both Balatro and STS appeal to me because you have no way of knowing exactly what choices will appear, making theory crafting builds and aiming for them pointless. Whats worked best for me is to pick the thing that helps most at that moment or for the next tough fight thats close. Planning a build that needs another relic/card/joker to come together that has a good chance to never show up weakens you in the short term and just means the run has a higher chance of failure.

Can't claim to be very good at those games either though.

 

[Colif]

I never use build guides

most of the games I play you need to look at least a little bit or end up with skill combos that don't work. Or are not ideal... or will lead you to certain death against certain bosses.
I often look for them before I start a character. Though 1st character of any game is a learning process, unless game is really easy you not going to reach end.
blames Sacred 2 for his seeing a character death as a failed build.

 

[Zloth]

I love levelling! Getting that little bubble dead center feels so good... (he says, as if he even owns a leveler)

But yeah, levelling up is so good that just about every genre has it now. It's a great way to change up the game.

It's not the only way, though. There's also the option to constantly reward the player with points and let them spend those whenever they want. That works great, too. Or you can have different things levelling up. If a character has three weapons that are each levelling up, that character can "respec" simply by swapping out weapons.

What didn't work so well was learn-by-doing, as in the pre-Skyrim Elder Scrolls days. It sounds great because it's a lot more realistic. How's a thief supposed to get better at climbing walls without even trying to climb any walls!? Unfortunately, it tends to lead to players doing whatever they want to be good at over and over in the safest environment they can find, like constantly jumping around town to bump up the athletics skill. In other words, people start practicing. It's so real, it made progression as boring as it is in real life!

Build Guides: That's like having a walk-through guide! I might read some for tips on a second play-through, or if I think I'm doing it badly on a first play-through, but my builds are too much of a creative expression to just take somebody else's build verbatim.

Notable Games:

TROUBLESHOOTER: Abandoned Children on Steam

TROUBLESHOOTER: Abandoned Children is the first season of a turn-based strategy SRPG that takes place in the world of Troubleshooter.

store.steampowered.com

The ultimate character builder's dream game - and it isn't even an RPG (even if it says it is)! It's more like XCOM with a JRPG story. HUNDREDS of skills to find and use! Hundreds of special bonuses for slotting in certain sets of skills. About a dozen characters to pick from (eventually) and you can bring up to 8, so the synergy potential is massive.

Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition

Also available: - Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Royal Ascension DLC - Pathfinder: Kingmake

www.gog.com

Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition

Brace yourself for new adventures set in your favorite universe thanks to the The Last

www.gog.com

Both of the Pathfinder games have many classes, with many options each. See what Frindis said above.

FINAL FANTASY VII on Steam

The RPG classic FINAL FANTASY VII returns to PC, now with brand new online features!

store.steampowered.com

Your characters do level up, but that's not the important thing. The powers your characters get are almost all gained from little gems called materia, and those level up as well. Some are simple ones that cast increasingly deadly elemental attacks, heals, or status effects. Some add abilities to your character like making them jump in front of other characters to take damage for them. Still others alter the effects of other materia. And, being little gems you slot into your weapons and armor, you can easily move them around from character to character. So, it isn't so much the characters levelling up in this game, but the powers themselves gaining levels! The newer games have the same system, but they aren't as pure an example.

 

[Kaamos_Llama]

most of the games I play you need to look at least a little bit or end up with skill combos that don't work. Or are not ideal... or will lead you to certain death against certain bosses.
I often look for them before I start a character. Though 1st character of any game is a learning process, unless game is really easy you not going to reach end.

The relatively little I've played of Diablo 2, Grim dawn and Torchlight 2 I winged it, but fell off the gameplay before I got stuck anywhere.

I've a friend who plays Path Of Exile pretty obsessively, he tells me that most of the fun of it is looking at the skill trees. Different strokes.

 

[Frindis]

Using build guides and broken builds can be a lot of fun, but it depends on the game for me and/or how good I want to become at it. In some games, you also don't need any help like guides or builds, while in others, it is absolutely crucial. Different games require different levels of understanding of their core mechanics, and some will encourage you to seek knowledge from others.

Take a simple enough game like PUBG. It is a battle royale game in which you loot, shoot and try to get the chicken dinner aka winning against 99 other players. I have close to 2K hours in that game and a vast amount of those hours has just been me screwing around and having an absolute blast.

Then there has been those hundreds of hours where I have tried (emphasize on tried) to become a better player through learning from much, much more experienced players like Halifax, TLGNT & WackyJacky, each with their own distinct skillset. I learned how to better read the map, how to aim better, how to understand the sound patterns better, what type of settings would be optimal, how to better drive, glide and be better at using the different weapons and tools.

I'm still not a very good PUBG player and I never will be, but learning from the best ones have made me win more rounds than I can count and even without having played much now for months, I could easily walk into a match and win it through pure experience. I know how to implement different strategies even if I am a horrible aim.

I guess my point is, it really depends on just what you want with the game. Anything is fine, it is our games after all.

 

[Colif]

The relatively little I've played of Diablo 2, Grim dawn and Torchlight 2 I winged it, but fell off the gameplay before I got stuck anywhere.

I've a friend who plays Path Of Exile pretty obsessively, he tells me that most of the fun of it is looking at the skill trees. Different strokes.

D2 I don't think I ever looked at guides in 2002. Might have when remastered came out
TL2 is easy enough you don't need guides. I played almost every combo though some characters are too fast to control.
Grim Dawn... it changed so much since when I played it in beta that I had to.

POE - Um, the skill tree ... the many skill trees... argh... i tried to like it long ago, I didn't like the controls. I feel I gave myself enough chances to like it now.

Titan Quest 2'? I wonder if there are any... game needs to release first I guess.

 

[Frindis]

POE - Um, the skill tree ... the many skill trees... argh... i tried to like it long ago, I didn't like the controls. I feel I gave myself enough chances to like it now.

Path of Exile 2 got very nice controls. You can use WASD for moving around and let me tell you, that is very smooth compared to using the mouse like you do in POE.

Titan Quest 2'? I wonder if there are any... game needs to release first I guess.

I have a feeling we will be seeing it at Summer Game Fest and with a release right after the presentation. Take that with a grain of salt, because I also believe we will see a HL3 release at the same event.

 

[Zimbaly]

Best leveling was Final Fantasy 6.
I will die on that hill.
🥷

 

[Zloth]

Best leveling was Final Fantasy 6.

Why? I played some of it, but I don't remember how levelling worked.

 

[Zimbaly]

Why? I played some of it, but I don't remember how levelling worked.

It was tied to the Espers. Was simple and easy, and with the Esper setup every character could learn all magic spells. So you could make crazy teams.

 

[Zed Clampet]

Using a guide to create a broken build...I'd just uninstall the game at that point.

Planning a build that needs another relic/card/joker to come together that has a good chance to never show up weakens you in the short term and just means the run has a higher chance of failure.

People trying to do this in poker are ATMs. They don't actually have a hand, but they are forced to bet like they do. You've already seen them go to the end with nothing in their hand, and you have a good hand, so you just keep making small raises so you don't spook them. It's kind of like the frog in the pot of water not realizing he's getting boiled. You raise several times in a row during the same turn and then do a bigger raise, one that hurts, and they suddenly get desperate. They know those cards aren't showing up, and they've wasted a fortune staying in. It's at this point that even experienced players may, out of desperation, try to scare you away by suddenly going all in. If they have a hand worth going all-in for, why were you the one doing all the raising? So you just toss your chips in and take their money.

The only minor problem is that if I had a killer hand, I used to pretend to be one of those players staying in the game with nothing, and let the other player do all the betting. And then, just like the ATMs, I'd suddenly go all in.

The good news is that very few amateur players will risk trying to let someone else raise for them.